Every ARPG has some kind of death penalty some are useless aka D3 gold cost for repairs, some hurt sooner or later aka PoE. Going back to the last checkpoint is no penalty in LE because we’ll have no repop in the zones in the future and you simply walk back to where you died. This is even more useless then D3 gold cost on repping because even in D3 you sometimes need more time to get the gold then it will take you to get back to the enemys that killed you in LE.
I’ll be fine with no death penalty and I’ll be fine with a decent death penalty like “10%” of the xp for the level because I don’t give a rats ass. I’m not okay about the “Make death penaltys total useless but still have one because reasones but just call it penalty without beeing one!”.
What do you think about getting a 4 echo setback in Monolith @Kiadaw ? Must be hell from your point of view. That’s like a 30 minute setback but without any XP penalty… you just loose 30 minutes of progression… poof and it’s gone.
I just don’t get it realy because in storymode it’s completly neglectable right now but you always mentioned the value of time and it seems you have no problem with the setback in Monolith that can cost you up to an hour of your life depending on the build you play. To me this sounds like a hidden agenda to get rid of the negatives of getting killed ingame. That’s just an asumption because no matter how often we twist words at the end of the day we loose time but you seem to be okay with setback that takes almost the same time then getting the XP back.
BTW I’m totaly okay with no penaltys in Arena because that’s a “test your limits” kind of game mode.
as someone who has played since beta of Path of Exile and have spent more than 10, 000 hours doing so… I would say that loss of xp when you die… is like… the LEAST of it’s problems… it’s a great game… but… damn… some issues has been grinding my ass since the start… the way items drift when you move… so clicking on an item makes your character walk in a different direction to where it ACTUALLY is located… the number of tiny irrelevant items you have to pick up because they not only don’t auto-pickup like gold in LE but they often drop as individuals… picking up individual perandus coins/chaos,regal,alteration,etc-shards… and so on… the crafting system only caters to the riches people … the… “specialized tabs”… I don’t mind a few specialized tabs like the Map ones much… but we STILL do not have any place to put the winged scarabs… enriched breachstones … there’s so much extra uneccessary crap… and I’m sure soon they will add a “maven invitations” and “watchstones” tabs… it’s just excessive and even with the new affinity system, it feels more and more like exploitation …
ugh… gonna stop ranting now… yes, it’s a fantastic game but it needs some hard competition… in Last Epoch hopefully…
I just logged into LE again and can immediately tell a lot has changed since I had a poke at it back in 2019 (not crashing all the time for example), looking forward to seeing more as I play
also… why isn’t my “kickstarter awards title” showing up in the forum here?
agreed, then again i kind of like not being punished for dying. i do understand that having no death penalty trivializes getting to level 100, and some players would go zoom zoom with no real repercussion (die so what, no xp loss).
i dont really know which direction the devs should take, but i would prefer if it were an optional thing that players opt into.
maybe add it as a 4th option anyway but they share the same league with softcore players where they can trade as normal etc. this way player base wont dilute. perhaps the main difference is that there is a separate ladder for “softcore+deathpenalty”
The 4 Echoes set back already is in. It sets you back without any direct influence on your character. You still have the same level and XP count than before.
If you add a XP penalty on top, you get that 30 minutes Monolith progress loss AND an XP loss that means X minutes character progression loss in addition to the endgame system progression loss.
I don’t get the argument. For me an 4 Echo loss is less impactful than losing 4 Echos + XP…
the way items drift when you move… so clicking on an item makes your character walk in a different direction to where it ACTUALLY is located… the number of tiny irrelevant items you have to pick up because they not only don’t auto-pickup like gold in LE but they often drop as individuals… picking up individual perandus coins/chaos,regal,alteration,etc-shards… and so on… the crafting system only caters to the riches people … the… “specialized tabs”… I don’t mind a few specialized tabs like the Map ones much… but we STILL do not have any place to put the winged scarabs… enriched breachstones … there’s so much extra uneccessary crap… and I’m sure soon they will add a “maven invitations” and “watchstones” tabs… it’s just excessive and even with the new affinity system, it feels more and more like exploitation …
The item drift can be imitgate a little with unhighlight/highlight upon picking some up. The issue is a result of to much loot drops.
For reason, GGG think it is a good idea to alot you to juice quaninity of monster/drops to the point of breaking the game. I suggested keep juicing cap at 20% & any extra hiuce raise the map tiers & qulity of drops. But as usually the white knights at the forum attacked me for my suggestion saying fun screen of monsters is what makes the game fun.
Yes, you are right, crafting is for the rich, & no-lifer & the game itself has a elitist issue., & the game is caterd to the top 1%.
“Simple” aug life craft sell for 2-3exalt last I checked on discord. 200exalt collate.
I watched Zizaran, a popular streamer complained that High red maps are now too easy to farm.
He also said you shouldn’t be able to beat end bosses if you started your first league.
Comepletely out of touch with the average gamers.
I hope this elitist mindset do not flow to here.
One of the reason on one league I quit PoE was I found them too greedy.
Maps were messy, so they created a map tab (which I appreciated), so I bought it, but the map tab did not include map fragments. Thread started asking why fragments were not included…
A few days later they added ANOTHER map fragment tab & wanted to sell us for another 8€. I was angry & ragequit. I am not poor, but I thought this was too much in greed.
My basic philosophy has always been to measure something in terms of “is it fun?” Sometimes it feels like people forget we are talking about a GAME, and that is something most of us do to relax and enjoy ourselves. If I want to punish myself, I just go back to my real life.
I’ve always been in favor of some kind of reverse system, i.e. no death penalties, but a “living reward.” The longer you don’t die, the more you get some sort of bonus which you lose when you die. This gives you an incentive to stay alive but doesn’t penalize you for dying. I guess this is kind of the way Monoliths work already, which I really like. There can be adjustments to how long it takes to get to 100 or whatever, but honestly I really don’t care. I never got a character to max in Diablo 2 but it still remains one of my all time favorite games and I played for hundreds of hours. No matter what is done, some hardcore folk will always get there, so why penalize casual-ish players just to temporarily slow hardcore players down?
As far as trade/auction house, I would love to see a system better than PoE/D2. This is another of the reasons I’ve been pushing for testing a larger multiplayer base sooner rather than later. No one knows how the “economy” is going to evolve. The devs may have an idea of what they think it should be, but actual implementation may change everything because of the way the player-base reacts. I don’t have any specific suggestions here, other than whatever system is implemented needs to be vetted in a larger group with varied types of players to see if/how it works for the average player. I’ve participated in pretty much every major MMO/ARPG launch in the last 20 years, and I don’t recall the economy ever work as intended at release. The majority of my friends never even touched PoE’s trade system, it was just too much effort. What’s the point of implementing a system that ends up turning away a large portion of the potential user base?
It’s all about loosing progress and time in here so getting set back the echos is far worse then beeing killed somewhere else. So if anyone don’t want XP penaltys or penaltys that don’t hurt at the end of the day the setback in monoloith shoul’d be a big bummer because it takes some time to replay this.
Yeah but the question is: Is a overall penalty needed? if yes what kind of penalty. Loosing 5% level XP for example will hurt in the veeery late game and would be mostly meaningless up to level 80ish but then it kicks in. A setback in the monolith is a setback in the monolith but what is with the story part and the arena?
I just don’t get the reasoning that:
A.: XP penaltys are bad because I loose a lot of time!
B.: Loosing Echos? Don’t care!
To me the setback in the monolith is enough. No downsides to arena is okay because you test your limits in there. A XP penalty in the story part is okay as well because A it keeps players aktive and focused. B it’s neglegtable at the end because if I need 23h to achve something or 23.5h is a drop in the oacen in a game that can be played for thousands of hours. C Everyone deals with it so noone is in a better or worse place then any other.
People just mention XP penalties and how dealbreacking they are or how much they want it or how indifferent they are about the topic. To me it’s something natural to have downsides if I mess up because it’s the same in every game.
Like in Chaosbane? You don’t die and get more gold, magic find and fragments? Works there pretty well but how to scale it with LE? An average person with an average build and with the game knowledge for the content the person playes is surely able to play 50 timelines. So how far is this buff scaling because a 50% bonus (yet it’s still a bonus) is a drop in the ocean at the end of the day.
What about an 1% xp, gold and magic find bonus for each level you don’t die? Or even more?
BTW for the auction house:
If I grind enough to get the item everything is fine. if I grind the same ammount of time to buy the item things are fine. IF I’m able to give a friend the unique he needs that’s totaly fine. From my point of view trading got worse since D2 .
A XP penalty in the story part is okay as well because A it keeps players aktive and focused.
XP loss in story is as meaningless as no penalty. Just check PoE. NO ONE cares about dying(unless HC of course) until the 90s as the XP loss can be easily recovered (at least until the last few leels where it matters, then no longer matters after you pass that few level).
The problem I have with your stand is your Obsession with XP loss, as opposed to death penalty, as opposed to not making sure player improve from by having a penalty.
A very simple question, Would you accept a death penalty if does not include XP loss? In story mode, you have to beat the boss to progress in story, which is inline with 99% of games out there. If you have bad gears or poor skill setup, you cannot progress. That will already encourage players to improve.
Why would you need anything more?
I have the impression you just want to win the “XP loss as penalty argument” then truely care about improving the game or players learning from mistakes. Convince me I am wrong.
But yet, you’re progressing towards level 100 anyhow. It does not make sense to me that someone who can’t progress through the game systems and bosses can eventually reach 100.
Anyway, this thread should just stop. It’s clear both sides of the camp aren’t convincing anyone and we’re all just rehashing our own biases over and over again.
This 50 comment thread about XP loss should just die already.
Some people will quit the game because they think it’s too hard.
For a very select few people, this might be due to XP loss.
If it’s not from XP loss, then it will be from something else.
You can’t design a game for literally everyone, and at the end of the day, it is up to the developers whether or not they think XP loss from death is a mechanic they want their game to have. Can we move on now?
Sadly I can’t find the video where @boardman21 (iirc) beat a boss blindfolded and naked ^^.
I’m not obsessed with XP loss, it’s just one example. I’m obsessed with points of view. I don’t care if there will be penalties or not. I’m just intrested in something that makes most players happy but I can’t find something meaningfull.
I think @Arundel is right at the moment when it comes to XP loss :). Just let the thread cool down on this topic and see what other stuff comes to mind. I think that’s something to look at again after implementation IF it’s ever implemented.
Edit: I madea lot of points but I do not want extend more posts discussing the same point & going in circles.
I think its a good idea that we can take a break from discussion about XP loss, as there are other points in this thread, & also other topics (not this thread) in feedback sections worth discussion. I think other threads also need their air time.
Maybe after a few days & a weekend visiting the in-law, we come back with better discussion. Cheers.
I cannot speak for everyone, but I just wanted to clarify I am not angry or heated (except for the 2 times I was falsely accused of lying).
My passion is often mistaken for aggression or pushy. If you or anyone feel like I was making a personal attack or too aggressive, I apologize, It wasn’t my intention.
But yeah, let’s let this topic died down a bit, & revisit if we have additional points to make after the weekend.
I’m german so no sweat from my side. I’m pocky as well if I want to understand something but to aggresive? From my point of view? Nah! Everything is fine I’m simply at a point where I have no ideas and settled with it :D. There’s a saying in germany “Mach dir keine Gedanken über ungelegte Eier.” what is “Don’t think about stuff that didn’t happen yet.” pretty much.
At the end of the day it’s a game and I’m done with this topic because I don’t want to “waste” my time on a topic that might never happen anyway ^^.
That’s definitely a cultural difference between Germans/Austrians and the British. My manager is Austrian and before she was my manager her emails would come across as a lot more aggressive/angry than I would expect a comparable email from someone in the UK/US/SA/etc. When speaking to her she’s very nice & not aggressive, but her emails can occasionally come across as abrupt (which to an English speaker is angry/aggressive).
Developers should avoid frustrating mechanics.
a) Slow. In POE there are more slow mechanics than active skills. Better to make mobs faster than making players slower. Slow and freeze are by far the most annoying mechanics in any game.
b) Areas where armor, resistances, regen etc are lowered. Players invest effort to build defenses, don’t lower them. Better to make mobs harder than players weaker. The result may be the same, but the feeling is different.
c) Players should always know why they die, under what mechanism and under what amount of damage. In PoE you usually die, without knowing why, you just disappear.
d) Take care with RNG in crafting.
e) Give time (or space) between facing a foe and the start of the fight. In PoE, in many cases, by the time you see the mobs, you are already dead. This, has as a result, the players to shoot and run areas constantly, without seeing enemies, like idiots: They have to hit the enemies before they see them in order to stay alive. That is a stupid mechanic.
I figures you might be from German seeing use accidently used “aktion” & not that funny.
I moved & have live in Linden, a small town in Middle Hesse for about 10 years now, & I know first hand in Germany, people tends to be straight shooters & every stranger you interect with acted like they had an argument with their spouse last night & pulled a long face.
But I rather people shoot me straight, then smile in front of me & stab me in my back.
Very well put; I’m sure there are many things poe does wrong atm but the most annoying thing for me it’s the clutter and lack of performance that comes with it; for me the performance of the game kept degrading during the last 2-3 year to the point where I have 1FPS in crowded places(without using minion build or other visually consuming mechanics); long story short: don’t forget to keep it optimized.
