Yes, performance is really bad, especially with a HDD. Almost unplayable until I upgrade my PC.
I think PoE went to far with effects & density stacking. There should be a limit how much density can be stack.
I think you need to differentiate between a well designed disincentive vs a badly designed one and the “losing EXP on death” is a very badly designed disincentive that serves no purpose apart from creating an artificial gating mechanism. Its a relic of the past and should be left there.
The current way the monolith works is actually a good way to introduce a penalty for death, you do not lose progress on your character however you still lose time. If you die all of the time in monoliths you simply won’t get anywhere, especially in the harder ones. If you play monolith you are definitely sensitive to dying (particularly on higher levels).
Now whether the campaign should also have a stronger death penalty is another quesiton, however in my view making it so that you have to reset on every boss fight if you die is good enough and its also the same experience as PoE (in fact arguably its more strict then PoE, in PoE you can easily zerg boss fights in campaign by constantly dying since once you lose all of the exp for the level there is no penalty anymore).
The biggest problem with badly designed death mechanics (hardcore included) is it also severely restricts builds and playstyles. You will tend to find that in PoE the only real builds that are successful are ones that can tank any situation, have decent AoE and deal strong enough single target damage (this is exasperated in hardcore). For example, rouge/assassin style builds which focus more on damage (but are not complete glass cannon) and use dodging style mechanics as a defense are almost never viable, in LE these builds are viable (see bladedancer). In the case of builds are more offense oriented, your faster clear speed is offset by the fact that you will die occasionally however if you go full glass cannon you will simply die so much its not worth it.
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As an Australian that lives in Germany I definitely agree with this cultural difference. German culture is very direct and people speak their mind, which can come across as very blunt/rude to typical anglo countries such as UK/US/Aus.
except for the fact that dodge mechanics in PoE are incredibly strong with other layers. My 4.3k life Pathfinder hit 97 with like 15 character deaths using vaal grace, acrobats/phase acro, flesh and stone for blind, and max chaos res.
Non dodge/block builds are the ones that have issues now. No EHP pool size is big enough without dodge/block.
By dodging I am not talking about the defence mechanic per say but the general concept of dodging which also means moving mobility/blink type abilities to avoid damage but more importantly that such characters are not stacking so much defence.
If you have a character with a high EHP pool that is stacking block AND dodge AND res just to survive that is precisely the problem I am talking about because this is what is limiting design space which is that builds that involve overstacking multiple defence types plus having decent AoE + single are the only viable builds in PoE because the death penalty specifically on the progress of your character is so high that doing assassin/rouge types of builds just don’t work.
Also on another related note this is one of the things I really enjoy about LE which is that its easier to iteratively work and figure out your build if you are dying too much without having to worry about killing the progress of your character. In PoE its incredibly easy to get “stuck” to a build since any character progress gets killed as soon as there is any minor problem (and this is what is what’s emphasizing netdecking so much in PoE). With LE I don’t really have to look at build guides online to reach endgame content, with my latest build I was dying quit a lot and I wasn’t progressing in terms of the later monolith levels but that gives me opportunities to change and experiment with my build to make it more successful and learning the mechanics of the game in a practical manner (which is what I find fun) without killing the progress of the character.
In this while process I am still very sensitive to dying since I am losing time in progressing on the monolith however not killing the progress on the character opens up plenty of room for experimentation/build iteration
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i don’t think that xp loss makes people quit PoE, but I think it’s an extremely irritating mechanic and i would be very happy if LE didn’t do it.
Talk about Yin & Yang…
I am not sure, you will get stuck in PoE if your build is bad, since you get so much respec points. Even if you respec every points, its less than 100 chaos, which is pocket change these days.
A singe boring Augment life harvest craft will cost 2-3 exalts (200-300chaos)
- Completely agree. Trading in PoE is utterly bad. Bad design, bad implementation, bad reception, etc. I really don´t understand why they keep it that way.
- Completely agree. If you have gear appropriate to the area, you should never be one-shot by something that is not CLEARLY telegraphed. I Don´t mind been one shoted by telegraphed skill like Abomination line of fire, or Lagoon been, but no mob should be able to One shot you from off-screen and one shot mechanics need to be clearly telegraphed.
- Partially agree. I think, as it is today, the penalty for death is too soft and normally I don´t care AT ALL if I died in some encounteurs. I don´t know if a xp penalty is the way to go, but they need to penalize heavier death. Maybe completely reset the echo count, or at least down it heavier. Die in empowered echos when you are on your 30~40 count and lose like 4 echos counts is waaaay to soft.
- COMPLETELY desagree. Boy, I can´t even express how much I disagree from this. What make this game interesting for me is EXACTLY those things, the fancy mechanics, the reflex dodges, telegraphed that you need to avoid, mechanics that, even if you are completely geared can kill you, etc. I don´t think you should NEVER be able to ignore boss mechanics and overpower the bosses by gears and level. Never ever. I hope they don´t change even a bit of this.
I assume you meant "I don’t think you should EVER be able to ignore boss mechanics.
I kinda disagree with that. I think it’s ok to be able to build a character sufficiently tanky that it can ignore all mechanics if they then hit like a wet noodle & it takes them a stupidly long time to kill it.
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- I’m not a fan of an Auction House in ARPGs. We all saw what happened with D3 before they removed it. I think that’s a lesson every APRG Dev should take to heart.
I am actually a fan of how D3 does loot and trading now. Personal loot. Loot that is mostly relevant to your class (besides uniques ,any can drop) and trading with people you group with.
I would be perfectly fine with that system in LE. trading in D3 isn’t required, like it is in say POE if you really want to min/max a character, I like that.
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As long as one shots are telegraphed in some way (and LE from what I have played does a good job of doing that) I am good with one shots.
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I’d prefer no XP loss on death personally. I never liked it in POE. I wouldn’t like it in LE either. It won’t stop me from playing the game, but it might others. Especially more casual or just not very good players. LE’s current death penalties seem fine as they are right now.
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There are good and bad qualities to POE’s Labrynth but i think the design of those is purposeful. End game PoE is supposed to be pretty rough and unforgiving. I don’t know if LE will go that route for all of their endgame, but it may be appropriate at times depending on what they implement and how.
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I’m writing this as PoE Veteran player i’ve played almost all league to closed beta at last. about 3k hour.
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Totally Agree, this game deserve a good trading system. Not a consuming-time trading system. I’ve spent not so many hours in trading in poe. And is so really boring. Need an automated system, like a AH but without Real Money. (The real problem with D3 AH is not the AH himself but the RMAH.)
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Totally Agree. I’ve always hated that system. I’m in mapping with fast pace and suddenly oneshot without a “real” reason (there are no combat tooltip).
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Partially Agree. For me the real problem is not the Exp Lost on Death but the Exp gaining after 90. Is really too slow. Can be good a death penality but if the xp gaining is really slow at higher level the major users give up and going to change char/game.
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I totally hated in all my PoE experience the endgame boss mechanics. Izaro is not difficult but is boring after u understand the mechanics. And all Lab is a totally wastes of time, only need for ascendant. Sirus? Sirus the WORST mechanics i’ve ever see in a videogame. Half of combat u need to “WAIT” the storm going away. The random offscreen laser beam can nearly oneshot. Is really annoying and is the “actually” boss of atlas. Maven? The last big endgame boss introduced with Echoes in a Sirus 2.0 with “memory game”. I’ve killed it two times and after sold out all my maven orb, dosen’t deserve my more playtime, not because is difficult but because is boring.
Btw, my first hope is the LE Dev, avoid what afflict PoE, the content bloat. U have a ton of stuff, too much, and all of it feel meaningless. Actually PoE seems not really rewarding at and after u reach and complete the endgame.
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I wanted to point out I am not against some interesting mechanic, but is a poor design when you lose to a mechanics that required more than understand the mechanics (than say reflex or memory skill) than the actual bosses/mobs.
Keep them interesting but do not go overboard.
It’s the same as non-core gameplay in any game, That’s like playing an FPS but you got stuck in a main story driving session, which was my experience in Far cry 5. Or playing an adventure game but stuck in a reflex boss fight ( a Plague tale).
Dear Devs and fellow players:
I am grateful for this thread, and hope that the input found within helps you design the most popular Action Rpg Mmo possible.
It is quite clear that the road to becoming the next big game in this genre is achieved by overcoming the flaws and shortcomings of “Path of Exile”. I strongly believe that “Diablo 4” WILL NOT BE A MAJOR CONTENDER because Blizzard values simplicity and reach of audience over quality or depth.
Likewise, with their Remaster of “Diablo 2”, Blizzard will not be able to address issues that are quite clear because they don’t care to; Their interests are first and foremost in profit, giving you, the developers of “Last Epoch”, a singular chance to stand out and make history, carving your names forever as a brand players can trust and turn to.
Hear our plea! Make a great game!
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My view on EXP dead penalty. (+8K hours in PoE, many 100lv)
- MANY of my casual friend just quitting league, when hitting wall on 93-94lv. And its because dead penalty. It just not fun for them lossing progress again and again. Iam feeling their flustrarion on discord every league.
- Its not fun, skipping content because over 40% exp…
- Even I have gag reflex when thinking about doing more Pure Breach rota.
- If u want harder challenge just play Maso or HC.
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Almost majority of bosses of PoE have really poor design. Most of them make some usless skills and all have one skill can oneshot you. All bossing is a work to avoid that skill can oneshot.
True, but respeccing in PoE to fix your build may require more points in your passive skill tree than you currently have and the reason why you are currently missing those passive skill points in the first place is because you were dying so often you stopped progressing.
This also needs to be said in context of PoE which is that its not only the passive skill tree/exp that is problematic in this area, PoE also has a more unique problem (compared to other aRPG’s) where its very difficult to change your item build as soon as you receive/pickup a new item due to how the links/gems work (its incredibly rare for an item to drop that has both the same link AND gem combination that you currently have). In typical aRPG’s the worst that can happen is that your stats and the strengths/weakness’s of some of your abilities can change but in PoE you can completely kill your build until you modify the item so the links/colours are the same.
The end result is that with all of these things combined PoE is extremely punishing and not in a good way. I get the impression that rather approaching design from first principles and trying to think about what a death penalty is meant to achieve they just copied other older games (D2) to make the game arbitrarily more difficult. While we are on the topic of D2, although it is true that it had the death penalty it was basically sought of irrelevant due to how the talent tree in D2 works, basically once you hit levels 50-60 the rest of your points are just spent adding levels to existing skills which only bumps the numbers. This is very different to PoE where certain game changer nodes tend to be on the edges of the passive skill tree (so even a level at 80+ can make a massive impact to your build especially if its not a cookie cutter build) and to a lesser extent in LE as well since the skill points at the top of the passive tree can be very impactful.
I mean in summary when comparing you are also often not comparing apples to apples, having the typical death penalty also has different effects depending on how the build/design/passive/skill system of the game works. Games like D2 just happened to be designed where basically almost all of your skills will have decent enough levels at around 40+ and so most builds were pretty much “done” at lvl 50 or so, this is not the case for PoE.
Anyone That denies the amazing things most really good games have, an AUCTION HOUSE, is purely ignorant.
Guild Wars 2 AH is a great example. PoE and Warframe are the WORST ways to implement trade in a game.
As far as exp loss on death ; This is NOT a free to play game. I paid you to play, and there is
absolutely zero reason for there to be a penalty to dying in this game, whatsoever. F2P games have exp loss due to the business model trying to get you to spend as many hours in the game as possible, in order to try and get money out of you.
If I pay you for a product, there should never be a penalty to use it.
Path of Exile white knights !! Yeah you about to type some BS !! Just stop, go back to grinding, and leave this game alone.
So this is totally false.
If you’re following a build or even making your own, as long as you have the right balance of defenses to damage, you don’t “need” any level to make a build work outside of very specific builds. ANY starter build is designed to progress to end game on zero budget and self-found gear. If you’re going for some really expensive build and trying to do it on no budget and low level yeah you’re going to be punished and it probably won’t work.
Also, the best nodes are definitely not on the outer edges of the tree. You pick a class that has a starting position closest to the nodes you need, for instance, most of the time you’d pick shadow for miner because within 40 points you have every major mine node on the entire 1000+ passive tree. The system of progression is actually pretty forgiving once you understand the basic principles of what builds need. If you’re making some weird duelist spell caster and need to path all the way to the top of the tree that’s kinda your own fault for picking such a poorly optimized build path.
Also what the hell is this about gem/link combinations? There are (very cheap) currencies that instantly change the color, number, and links on an item. There is no way to “kill your build” because you can fit any new item to your exact colors and links as your old one. For the first day or two of league when you’re low on currency yeah you need to kind of work with what you have, but past that it’s not a problem.
Also, builds in d2 are by no means “done” at level 50. You still need skill levels and gear to progress, the exact same as it is in PoE. You wouldn’t be killing hell Baal on a Sorc using full Sigons at level 65, it’d be impossible. You need +1 Gcs, maxed synergies, +Skills on gear to get to a place where you’re able to do that. It’s a similar system in PoE albeit less linear.
That’s very subjective, while I like an AH, to say that anyone who doesn’t is ignorant is, somewhat intolerant of other people’s ideas & just a smidge hypocritical.
Again, I disagree though in degree rather than in principle. I’m ok with having a punishment for failing (death) but an xp penalty is excessive for me unless you can recover most of it like in Grim Dawn. IMO the Arena reset & being pushed back a few timelines in monolith are good penalties for their respective modes.
Then I believe there are some auto-clicker/AFK games that you might find “enjoyable”…
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