Unused/Underused Skills/Nodes and Affixes

There are a great number of skills, skill nodes, and affixes (as well as items in general) that are not used at all (or greatly unused). It is my opinion that LE needs to go through these things with a fine tooth comb as I believe this would help immensely.

For the most part, Skills seem to be good with this, but the Nodes that are used seem to be always the same very few “branches.”

If EHG can utilize some resources to look at what is completely unused and figure out why, it might help improve the gameplay be leveling out the build diversity. Rogue builds use the same very few skills in comparison to what’s available.

A good example of this is in the skill nodes for Holy Aura, nearly the entire left side is completely unused. I went through 20 builds (yes I know, not a lot) just now and there were only three that used more than the first 2 nodes on the left side and none of them used Faith’s Reward. This is just a simple example but there are MANY nodes within the skill trees that follow this same pattern.

It shouldn’t be too hard to look at the d/b to see what is used in the builds on the server and parse that data against what is available and how often each is used, leaving you with those that are rarely or never used.

I would then ask myself 2 questions:

  1. Why are they not used (are almost never used)?
  2. What can I do to make them valuable in the game?

I’m not overly good at putting this stuff together but these are my thoughts so I am very much open to input from any and all.

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tldr: Game needs balancing goals or we can’t tell what is good or not. Right now we can only compare builds. Then ethere are differences in the same build build depending on player skill. As long as EHG isn’t saying “X ammount of corruption is the limit we aim for!” everything will stay messed up.

First of all the balance of LE is a sad joke. So yeah there are the meta things to do, there are builds that scrape by and then there is trash.
So far balancing stuff isn’t EHGs strong suite and the complaints about the balance of the game is an onegoing story EHG isn’t caring enough about… well at least from my point of view.
To make things “short”: The game will stay in a terrible spot because EHG didn’t even set balance goals. Last we heared if people reach 4 didgit corruption they messed up as Mike said. Well they mess up for years because they can’t bring themselfs to say “We aim for abcd to be the most to reach for now and everything that exceeds this limit needs to be nerfed and everything else needs to be buffed!”.
They don’t even have a baseline to tell us what skills and nodes are in a fine place because they can’t tell what is op and what isn’t because we have no value for it. There are people goining strong at 40k+ corruption while others struggle at 100+ corruption. All we can tell is the hardest boss in the game sits at 500 corruption. So having an uber boss you can try at 500 corruption and most likely beat when you are used to 1k corruption should tell us at least a bit about the balancing goals of EHG right? Wrong!

As long as EHG isn’t growing a pair and setting goals and balance targets we can’t even say if something is bad or not. We can only tell X is worse then Y and we still don’t know if Y is OP or weak because EHG is lazy and uses an endlessly scaling system so they don’t have to promise anything or to put real work inot it.

To me it’s a tad bit pathetic and I start to ask myself if they are unable to balnce stuff or if they are incompetent in this field of work. I’m realy bad with numbers but even I can tell that things aren’t okay if builds hit thousands of corruption while other builds struggle with hundrets or outpasce both by factor 10-40. It’s just pathetic to watch.

On the other hand… why should a “I main Rebuke because I want to!” Paladin should reach thousands of corruption on the other hand? Or why should I as a Marrowshard enjoyer (just picking something here) have a good time with a trash skill that is there and bad for years because… reasons?

Why is the current state any different to when they said that 300c was their threshold?

But they have said that, when they said that if you hit 300c things re good & if you hit in the thousands then they messed up, that is a balance goal. That stuff that doesn’t hit 300c or exceeds x,000 c needs to be buffed/nerfed respectively is the obvious bit that doesn’t need to be said.

Those two things aren’t related.

Yes, those are the two main choices here, with an honourable mention for making the choice to not prioritise balance over, say, bug fixes or new content.

Because I could say “Using this build setup I can do 69523656 corruption. That’s op!” or I could say “With this build setup I fail at 69 corruption something is strange about it.”. Without any clear metric I can’t say neither outside of “WoW nice push!” or “Gid gud!”.

They said when you hit 4 digit corruption so 999 is fine 1000 is a miss.

Yes they are. As soon as you have a celing you need to balance everything a lot more. if every build is running it down without breaking a sweat balancing is obviously an issue and can’t be hidden anymore. So making a system that cicumvents this enirely is lazy from my point f view.

Yeah but as they said since o.x balance is an onging process and always worked on. With this in mid I question their work.

But you’re asking for something they’ve already given so what’s to stop you from doing all of this with any new guidance? I know they haven’t formalised it & they’ve stopped saying it recently(ish).

:roll_eyes: Yes, their balance is clearly going to be that pedantic & they won’t be pragmatic about it at all. They are currently nowhere near that level of specificity.

Why? Did them saying that 4 digit corruption is too much suddenly allow them to more finely balance builds & skills? Is that your argument? Did it work in the past?

I agree that having more clearly defined (& limited) levels of difficulty, like maps in PoE, does gelp in balancing things, but even in PoE where GGG have had well over a decade of experience there is a wide range in terms of how far a build can go between fine finely tuned synergistic builds on one end & randomly put together builds (one might almost say, objectively bad builds) on the other hand.

So your argument, while reasonable in principle & probably broadly ok-ish, doesn’t hold together particularly well even in a mature game produced by seasoned devs.

Like the early-mid campaign (& probably the rest of it as well).

Balance has always been & continues to be an issue. Which is a pity.

While balance is an on-going thing, I agree, the polite way to say it us that there’s a lot of room for improvement.

They moved goalposts a lot. Fromm 300c endgame to 300c good build to we messed up if someone reaches 4 digit c. next time they answer it it’s most likely 10k c. They need to set this into stone for the current state of the game and ACT accordingly. Just talking cheap and nothing is ever adressed is cringe.

It’s just about what they said. reaching 4 digits is everything after 999 ^^. Maybe they ment to say as long as it stays 4 digits and then again they had work to do that isn’t sone at all.

Because they could be held accountable for that. Their reputation would be on the line. They would be the laughingstock of the industry if they can’t find a balance level ±30% because it#s never perfect. Still we have people on over 40k C and other struggle at 100. Sure there are a lot of factors playing into it like build, skill, time invested in gear and so on and so forth but this window is to big.

PoE still has op and broken stuff for sure like every other game does in the genre but at least something is done there. Might take some timee or backfires but they adress it and work on it and don’t be silent about it and do nothing about it what seems to be EHGs way. I don’t expect wonders or witchcraft but if I go to work tomorrow my boss had said specific goals i need to reach and if I don’t reach them I have problems. If EHG had a goal to aim for we would know where we stand and don’t only take guesses or say everything is fine while the house is brurning down.

Yeah but I think it’s even more pittyfull when the topic is not adressed. if the would say “While we would like to work on balance we have more pressing matters right now and we do a big balance overhaul in the future when there is time. untill then we try to keep the worst offenders in check.”. Hey easy… I would know where i stand say “Fuck it!” and move on untill they finaly get things done important to me or i stay away when things go down south even more.

I don’t know. Noone is forcing them to do what they do. They choose it and I think it’s fair game if they have to feel the heat even in an unapoligetic way.

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Yeah, kinda, though I don’t think (as a native English speaker) that there was much of a practical change. To me it feels more like a change in wording vis-a-vis 300c & that the 1k+ was the upper limit for “acceptable”, that if a build goes beyond 1k then they feel that they clearly need to nerf it.

There is a certain pragmatism that’s required when thinking about this though. You seem to be saying that if build A capped out at 999c the devs would think that’d be ok but if build B capped out at 1k then that clearly needs to be nerfed despite only being 1c higher than A. Which, IMO, is a ridiculous position to take. IMO both should be looked at & likely nerfed a similar amount if 1k is their threshold.

:roll_eyes: And yet somehow their reputation wasn’t “on the line” when they gave the lower (300c) & upper (1k) bounds of acceptability?

This where the other factors come into play I feel. If the player who’s capable of hitting 40k on a busted build can’t hit 100 on a shit build then that speaks to the imbalance between those builds, but if two players are using the same build & one caps out at 40k & the other at 100 surely that’s player skill not build balance?

Absolutely. And I agree that having a fixed difficulty cap would help with the balancing, I don’t think that having corruption cap at X would actually help EHG. And even if they did msnage to bring the majority of builds up to being able to hit whatever that target was (& I’m not sure they can because they haven’t been able to in the past) then the community would focus on how quickly any given build could do that difficulty cap. Build A might be able to do a boss/mono/whatever in 60 seconds but build B takes 60 mins, there’s clearly quite a big difference in power there.

Yup.

Sounded the same to me but then again I think I misunderstood something because they obviously don’t act according to this.

Nononono :smiley: .That’s just nitpicking on the 4 digit stuff Mike said :rofl: . I’m a shithead but I’m not so completely lost that I want them to finetune the blance so everyone is able to reach 999C but noone will ever reach 1000C :smiley: . As I mentioned I’m happy with: basline balance equals X ±30%. That’s a big error margin and leaves enought room for Meta shifts. All I want to know is what X is in this case.

Sure I mentioned that as well when I said multiple factors play into it. but look at the judgment Pala pre nerf for example. They were all pretty close on the high end and EHG gave it a slap on the wrist. That’s the way to go. They don’t even overnerfed it into uselessnes what was kind of a suprise for me.

Skill and time is a huge factor that plays into it. We all know at least one person who struggles with the most basic concepts and is even overwhelmed with playing easy builds. Said person will most likely never reach 1k+ C while others are in the 3k+ ranges.

Then again EHG is able to see how stuff is performing and they can act according to it. It’s a lot of Data to go through and most likely a loooong rats tail of factors that needed to be identified and understood. It’ll take a ton of time and work but to my liking they do to little to late.

Yes if there was a cap the new meta would be how fast you can get there for sure. As I said above I want a baseline. If there are still things that are better or worse so be it. For example a person who says “My build is rebuke only!” should suffer in the self picked idiotic life choices. Someone who is playing Rogue shouldn’t be able to reach 40k+ C just because picking rogue while a person on the same skill level who invested the same time and effort is struggeling at 3k C because of class choice.

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Nice post bro! Definitely pro this and you’re spot on with older stuff.

Lol love how everyone who posts something good on these forums has people instantly hijack the thread and argue with their 2 cents instead of creating their own posts. It’s so cringe that it happens on 9/10 posts lmao

I was rather hoping he’d post some gripes with specific uniques/skills/nodes as he mentioned in the other thread as that’s more useful to the devs. A thread mentioning that some aren’t useful & some are almost always chosen isn’t particularly useful, especially when the devs already have that info. But a post about how some suck & are never chosen and why, that shit’s useful (especially the why, the more specific the better).

I did use Holy Aura nodes as an example but affixes such as Health on Kill is another one that I never use and don’t think anyone else does. That’s why I mentioned a look at the d/b and parsing the data as I can only go from my perspective and what I have seen in others’ builds also.

Anything Stun is also at least almost never used. I know that I never use it and haven’t seen it used in any builds I have looked at in a long time.

I was also looking for input from others from what they see as well, but there are so many skills with nodes that never (from what I see and have used) get used that they might as well not even exist. They are numerous though with the number of skills we have and the number of nodes in each one. That’s why I just used the one example above.

Mike asked me to go through and make a list when I brought it up on disc, I’m pretty lazy but I guess I could. I am unsure of some class specific skills as I’m a whore to Rogue/Sent and a part time Primalist lover. I’ll give the weapons/armor a go for a list, maybe start a thread and then people could add to it for the ones missed in posts above?

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Add to the Bad list
Churning Orbs and Trail of Storms nodes in Tornado (which is bad as dmg skill by its own) are unbearable pile of junk and waste of 6 pts

The Tornado that they wanted to rework? Back in April? 2020…

This post in particular has not aged too well.

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Oh I’m not an archeology fan :roll_eyes: but kinda unlucky in some of my offmeta experiments

Because since then it’s not been as clear-cut. They failed to abide to the 300c setup they stated even remotely… but ever since Aberroth and Uberroth came out it’s been a mess. The boss access and the ability to realiably fight them is quite different which causes the precision for targeting a specific end-goal to become quite hard, not to speak of rewards and needed content to beat being without any correlation with CoF prophecies. Same reward could push you into 100c content or 300c content, which is… fairly odd to say the least design-wise.

Which is a goner though, 300c is not reliable anymore, 500c is now. Because of Aberroth and the expected power related to difficulty to be upheld for people commonly. So the 300c is already a pipe-dream which has been lost beyond saving.

But no actions to balance related to 500c has been done either, so it’s a mess overall.

Endless scaling systems and lazyness are at least, the promising part isn’t. You’re right with that.

But a endless scaling system is vastly easier to build compared to a hand-tailored design.

And that’s 100% true.

Endless scaling is a great measure to cover up shortcomings. But it means those shortcomings are still there. Fever people realize it… but even those which don’t realize where it comes from are affected.

And that’s the start, they need to speak the silent part out so it gets the respective weight… and then adhere to following it.

Yes, and the differences are still hefty. But they’re also vastly more in line then LE’s builds. By magnitudes.

It’s fairly obvious something is plainly spoken ‘gone wrong entirely’ when your product fails at the same metric vastly worse then a comparable product which already gets critized in that aspect regularly and reasonably.

Exactly, EHG went beyond words and not actions are demanded and the only reasonable thing.

Which doesn’t mean their words should cease and them growing silent… but they gotta underline every little sentence with the according action and be beyond top-notch related to doing so.

And that’s not shown, hence sentiment can’t improve quickly… which is a immense danger for them.

Even if they state ‘we cannot work at that pace and hence we’ll have a single update per year only’ it would be fine. The issue is… whatever EHG says is extremely overhyped and underperforming as a common notion sadly. They fail to work with the emotions of the customers properly.

Things like hyping up a event that introduces very intrusive mobs into the core gameplay loop and hyping it as ‘something never seen’ before is out-of-scale for how the customer perceives it and how they state it to be. Management of expectations is atrocious simply.

The same is likely to be seen with Act 5 Morditas related stuff… because we should fear only hearing the name of a dude we have barely any knowledge of and the game lacks nigh any proper exposition of the deeds making us build a proper rapport to that statement. Hence it falls flat… and is simply overselling the magnitude of it for the absolutely vast majority of people. I’ll bring again a PoE example into it… when Lake of Kalandra was revealed people went haywire ‘It’s about Kalandra! This will be huge! We learn more about Kalandra!’
Why? Because the mirror of Kalandra is an iconic item which in itself tells the lore through the gameplay mechanics… and people haven’t heard anything about the character much further, but it showed in-depth lore stuff if you knew where to find it. But even without that the notion of it becoming ‘a league where you’ll have the ability to somehow duplicate things in some way/shape or form’ was premise enough. People knew what to expect roughly.
And even while the mechanic wasn’t all too overwhelming and received rather… mid at best… it still kept people eagerly engaged as it provided what was expected as a ballpark.

LE doesn’t have that… statements which make things seem huge but which are absolute duds in every respect. That’s undermining their efforts massively. You can do great things and be scorned… or you can barely do anything and be praised. It’s all about expectations and managing community sentiment.

If we’re nitpicking ‘yes’. Absolutely so.
Common sense then gasps and makes ‘1200’ acceptable still… and ‘800’ also ok-ish.

But let’s be clear here… as @Macknum stated… the difference between 100c strugglers (and not too few either) and 30k overachievers is just too much to be reasonable.

Why do you think their reputation is in shambles? Sure… not that alone… but it’s part of it.

So yes, it was on the line, they fucked it up, but they can’t avoid their reputation being on the line by simply avoiding the uncomfortable hard statements and then following through.

You either provide things properly or you’re called incompetent, and incompetence is a harsh thing to be connected to one, means you failed in some way. And while natural to fail in several ways… you should at least succeed in those that matter the most, but that’s not done.

It is player skill, absolutely so! 100%!

But it’s also game-design. There’s options to ensure people with bad skills rise up a bit more… and to hold those with extreme skills back.
Reduces the gulf between them.

Obviously there is a need for highly skilled players to showcase their skills and be distinct from someone without any skill to speak of… but the magnitude of how far apart that is can be managed and is mandatory to do so. And that’s a failing state in LE as well currently.

You mean like:

Lightning Blasts ‘Focal Blast’ line for example? Which no sane person takes as it’s absolute shit in damage effectiveness (100% is a joke for any skill) and reducing the only upside (auto-AoE) without a specific trigger is just nonsensical as it’s outperformed vastly in function and damage by other skills in the same class simply?
Or ‘Insidious Conduction’ as it’s forcing you to stay still with severe downsides on top of that? Like half ward generation, half ailment application, hefty extra need attack speed to even resemble anything but a single-target spell (which is unfeasable by itself) while also removing the ability to gain ward based on mana-usage from the channeling itself, causing that to fall away as well?
The whole bottom left side is nearly useless, with very few exceptions.

And that’s commonplace with skills actually. We got those lovely nice skilltrees which seem great… but in reality we got 25% commonly used if the skill is even used at all without being a simple ‘side-effect which is nice’, then 50% of the whole skill-tree which is extremely situational and railroaded depending on build, and 25% which is simply ‘dead’.
Puts ‘choices’ quite into another frame when realizing it.

We got few skills per class which railroads the build types already, then those skills are reduced further because some simply suck and you try to avoid em… using those only because of a lack of useful alternative… and then you even got inside those skills a railroaded progression which is presented as ‘great choices’.
A choice is not only ‘Is A or B better for me?’… it’s ‘I can use A or B both… which do I think fits me better?’.
Simply finding the only feasable soltuion and then saying ‘you had a choice’ is just nonsense.

I’m not sure. I definitely agree that it’s not clear in-game at all on account of the lack of fixed difficulty monos/maps like PoE has, but I view the whole thing differently to you it appears.

IMO, the 300/1,000 c numbers (if we ignore for a moment that they may not be relevant anymore) for the lower & upper bounds for build worthiness, alon to being able to do t1 maps or t16 maps in PoE.

Abby/Uberroth then form the route up to the pinnacle & I’m aware that Uberroth isn’t ~1k c difficulty as far as I’m aware so this is probably where things get a bit aspirational, and that people say that the path up to Uberroth leaves something to be desired.

If the whole 300/1,000 thing were still relevant then EHG would have to actually do something around that, nerf whatever the fuck is going into the tens of thousands of corruption & buff the numerous underperforming skills. I don’t even think it matters where the devs draw their lines in the sand to balance around as long as they do something about it & are consistent & effective and not over zealous.

It also needs to be clearly communicated in-game, IMO & this is where fixed levels of maps help. If monos weren’t the sum total of endgame content & it was primarily focussed around fixed-ish difficulty things like PoE’s maps then monos being effectively endless wouldn’t be an issue, just like Delve isn’t an issue in PoE.

Yes, exactly that.

We lack any form of ‘anchor’ to properly see - in quite clear terms - where we stand as a player. That’s a pure design-based issue. And a very serious one.

If EHG solves that and balances accordingly around it the game’s reception would go up substantially even with the ongoing complaints overall. It’s something which is direly undervalued in effect, it has a massive effect on perception when players have a reliable comparison for the brain to latch onto and deem oneself ‘successful’… well… or not :stuck_out_tongue:

There is also the massive problem that other ARPG are having, differences in speed and efficiency. Say both class A and B are able to clear 1k+ monos, now one takes 30 seconds and the other takes 45 minutes. A ton of people whine that both can clear it gut them both without understanding why they both can, or the differences in them. A few years ago people were screaming about warpath and minions being op because you could do harder content, it just took forever, yet many of us had rogue builds that were sub 30 second monos. It was literally taking 20x the time to loot the map vs just clearing it.

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That’s the same thing that we’re talking about & it will always exist. But at the moment the issue is more basic, once the majority of builds can do a putative “max corruption” then the devs can look at balancing so that they can all do things in a broadly similar time.