Trade development update - Introducing merchants guild and circle of fortune factions

I don’t want to come off as overly negative because I really appreciate that you’re trying to use cleaver game design to solve this conflict between player desires. That said, this seems absurdly difficult to balance.

Trading is the single most powerful item acquisition method in any ARPG short of an item editor. It allows you to take any sufficiently rare drop and convert it into the exact drop you wish it was, combine many lower rarity drops into a single high rarity drop, or do the opposite with a single extremely rare drop. Trading is fully deterministic, you will always get exactly what you want once the total of all the drops you’ve had but don’t need at up to that value.

I don’t think it’s possible to have a randomized system that is equivalent to a deterministic one, at least with the amount of variance and playtime involved in an average ARPG. If you’re going to play the game as if it was a full time job for years than the RNG would average out, but for many players the determinism of trade is almost certainly going to be better than the variance of CoF.

Let’s create a hypothetical example. Suppose for whatever reason, the economy balances out such that Eye of Reen and Herald of the Scurry are worth about the same amount since they are similar rarity. For a prospective Scurry player in MG, they can get their helm if either of these items drop. If the helm drops they just use it, but if the Eye drops they sell it and buy the helm. On the other hand, the CoF player can only get the helm drop, as the other drops are actually worthless to them.

That sounds like you’d need to double the item find rate, but it’s sooooo much worse than that. I just listed two items, but there are way more unique items at that rarity. No matter which of these items drop for the MG player, they can convert them into the helm, while the CoH player has to wait for one specific drop from that pool.

For the two to be truly equivalent, the average CoH player would need to get one of EVERY rare-tier unique item in around the time it takes the MG player to get one of them. This is why PoE’s drop rates are so absurdly low, it’s the only way to prevent total market flood because the game will give players good drops that they can’t use on their build far more often than ones that they can. Alternatively they could have access to target farming that borders on deterministic, but that would boost them well beyond what is being suggested here. At Rank 4 the CoH player would already need access to farming that is far more efficient than what we have now to balance the MG player’s ability to buy uniques, and it would need to scale up even harder to keep up with their ability to buy exalteds and legendaries.

I really do wish you the best of luck on this, but as proposed I would expect your most casual audience to feel forced into trade just because it’s so strong. If that does become the dominant playstyle then the game will need to balance around that and end up being just another PoE.

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But the CoF player will have a higher chance to drop the helm (because they chose CoF) plus the ability to target farm the helm. How much that affects the drop rates we don’t know (and the devs may not have decided), but yes, it’ll require some frequent tweaking as the devs get a larger sample size to see what happens.

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Not sure of the numbers but a multiplicative bonus interacting with the MF of corruption has the potential to get very high, especially as more people are able to push corruption higher and higher.

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It’s really interesting, we’re getting quite a few people suggesting that MG is going to completely eclipse CoF.

We’re seeing a similar number of people suggesting that CoF is going to completely eclipse MG.

I don’t think that it’s an easy thing to predict really given how big the changes are from what we already have. In order to improve the quality of CoF drops, we are introducing the Prophecy system. It’s not gone into detail on in the main post but essentially it will be a Favour sink that will allow you to influence your drops so you can more easily target specific items.

We also have several dials that we can turn for both factions which will adjust their relative power. Chief among them is simply the Favour costs of everything. CoF falling way behind? Prophecies 50% off, get 'em while they’re hot! (Disclaimer: just a random example, not an exact action that will necessarily be taken)

It is going to be tough to balance the system. I think we’ve put enough different ways we can adjust their relative power that we should be able to get them in a similar spot.

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I can’t agree sorry. For me fun is more important

I could be wrong about this one and it will be subject to change but I think it has to be multiplicative in order to be a consistent relative power to MG.

I missed a few small points regarding the MG

  • You cant trade uniques until Rank 4
  • ‘Set items cost less favour’ so items cost favour to buy/sell according to that

So you cant trade uniques freely right away and they cost points to sell/buy, so even if you had infinite gold it appears you are gated by another system anyway, and you cant apparently ever trade LP uniques or exalted armor? Unknown how long Rank4 would take, not many people enjoy being locked from a system due a rank level. Obviously this is subject to change

I can imagine someone running out of points and seeing another item for sale and cant afford it, have to go do some quest for more favour, come back and the item is sold

I think there is an issue with allowing trade in general and then restricting it by means other than your financial wealth, I truly believe the power should be solely in the players hands to do what they want if they can

Personally after hearing this proposal I just want it to be a permanent choice when you choose your class you can go CoF/MG permanently and just unrestrict MGs trade to not have all these conditions attached

Please realize that there are lots of players who like organically finding items and not just go and buy them even if it is less efficient. And with the new Rank system the gap between the two faction is not that huge.

I understand the pull to try and draw conclusions from the limited set of early details regarding balance but please be careful with the assumptions and read the whole post for more information (including the FAQ).

The lack of rank explicitly stating that you can trade LP uniques doesn’t imply that it won’t exist (it will). The FAQ talks about being able to trade items all the way up to and including Legendaries. Each Faction will have 10 ranks. At max MG rank, all types of equipable items will be tradable at the Bazaar.

I understand the desire for open trade but in order to accomplish our goal of not splitting the community and allowing people to play together regardless of the selected faction, we need to be able to balance the relative power of each. Even if you couldn’t play together, we would need to be able to balance the relative power. This means that we need to have dials on both sides of the equation. So, we are going to keep the limiters on trade.

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Wow, this solution seems awesome. Kudos to you guys for finding a middle ground.

:wave: Here’s one

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We’ve been waiting for this update since we bought this game back in 2020. Thanks for bringing us a new multiplayer/trade experience. EHG, keep in mind you cant satisfy everyone’s needs. gg!

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isn’t it the same thing as saying ‘I want that node on the skill tree right away because that would make levelling so much faster and more fun’? The way you earn ranks and gain more options for trading is how the devs see the faction progress for your character. It is a part of the gameplay.

I really find this confusing. Lets say the drop rates are slashed by 90% gold increased by 2000% would you still solo or would you buy? Conversely if it cost you 2 Million gold just to open the trade window once, would you trade? I mean its a lot more delicate a balance then I like X so I am going to do it.

I can’t speak for them but I suspect that the implication is that if the two options are roughly in the same ballpark of balance but if finding items was moderately worse, they would not use the trade system even if it was available.

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Neither. I just wouldn’t play at all.

I am really stunned with this design you came up with, EHG. You continue to surprise me, in a very good way :grinning:

This solution really shines in letting both ways of playing open, even with the freedom to taste a bit of both if ever we wanted to. Making them cohabit using this faction system is quite innovative.

And even if I’m maybe more aligned with CoF, I can’t wait to test both of them, this is certain !

Impressive and smart, as always ! :sunglasses:

I am very fan of the direction LE takes, and the fact that you continue to take all of your community feedback into account in your decisions ! Keep it that way :+1:

*edit: typo

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Hmm not really anything alike since unique have level requirements so you are gated from that anyway but if you feel arbitrary restrictions are good thats your opinion but if you are making a new character you are either 1. restarting from nothing 2. have the means to be twinked

If 1. is happening not really sure the gain of restricting low level players from engaging in trading low level uniques, then all that happens is newer players dont learn it, seasoned players will then hoard uniques to saturate the bazaar the moment they can trade

If 2. you wont need trade anyway since you can hoard your own leveling uniques

why are you bringing up unrealistic assumptions? just not point rly.

^THIS

when you reach the pointt in game when you do need very rare legendaries or uniques with LP you will have the required ranks. That is my guess

Right, I get it you enjoy finding your items, not trying to take that away from you. However your statement operates that both are viable, and I see similar statements but people often forget about the viable part. Getting these two opposing forces to work together and towards balance is a lot of delicate work, that was the point I wanted to make.

A lot of people can look at a system, that is not balanced, and put aside personal preference. Like most things the devil is in the details.

I wanted to add, because tone can get lost online, this is not a dig or an aggressive attack. I was just trying to use the extremes to highlight my point.