That’s why I said the extremes on both sides were guilty of Doom and Gloom. I kinda figured the following sentence just inherited that mutual accusation 
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I don’t think that is the case actually.
Only the people who like/want trade say “the game will die without trade” (or at least will get much less attention in the aRPG landscape.
The people who really like the solo/coop aspect don’t really think or say that the game will die with trade, they just don’t want this game to be something similar to a thing we already have most of the time.
I am in the camp of fully supporting the only group trade thing with no real economy. Even though I still think that a trade/economy would most likely bring more people and overall “success/mainstream attention” to the game.
I just don’t think a game needs to be as “successful as possible” by compromising on a certain vision/niche.
There are so many good games across various genres that put them selves in very niche genres, but on purpose.
I fully believe even without that potential overwhelming success of a trade econmy EHG will still have the necessary funds to make this thing outstanding in its own right.
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Easy thing to say but at the end of the day both sides move in cycles and we get nothing new out of it because EHG isn’t moving an inch or transmitting life signs on the topic… not even an “We work on a statement.” or “We watch the debate closely.” and that’s the real Problem I think
The people who want some kind of a more indepth gifting system or trade on top or free trade brought up some valid arguments why they think trade is something good. People expressed their feelings why they think trade should be a thing (more or less helpfull tbh).
Same happens to the opposition and they told us why they are against trade and they expressed theri feelings and oppinions equaly (more or less helpfull).
Even if EHG says “We communicated our descission so stfu we are not intrested!” things would settle faster then EHG playing dead.
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Among all the threads I think there were a lot of really good ideas and suggestions that arose from all of this.
While there are a lot of people that do the trench warfare and don’t move an inch on their opinion there is still a lot of good stuff out there.
Also a “we watch the debate closely” is something that is not really necessary, because EHG histrocially always watches the forum (and all other platforms) very closely
That is not how EHG did things histrocially and I don’t think they would start doing that now.
Even when internally they already know they won’t change anything in the foreseeable future, they would not call that out and drown all discussions.
Even on some of the most longwinded discussion topics like auto-loot or respec they only did some minimal compromise (min respec level and vacuum loot) and after that nothing for months/years even though discussiosn were still going hot.
I don’t know were EHG stands with all of the discussions that happened now after the announcement.
But I am very sure they already knew before doing that announcement, that things will go wild.
On one side EHG always wanted to work together with the community and doing a compromise that both sides are happy with would be one possible option.
On the other side I feel like just because those hot discussion immediately changing their plans also comes off as being weak and having no clear vision. (Catering to the community is not always the best for the game, because the community often does not have the whole picture).
But overall I am actually surprised how close the opinions are to a tie.
I personally feel like its 60/40 for trade, so there are more people that would want trade.
But when they initially did that announcement I would have though we get something like 70/30 or 80/20 for trade.
Whatever EHG’s logn term plans are I am almost certain that they will not have the time to do any major changes before 0.9.0 so we will most likely get the announced system and then we have to go from there.
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Normaly yes but I think this topic deservs an expection because some people are unsettled by everything that happend and the holiday leave the devs took after dropping this “bomb” 
. That’s just my oppinion because I think sending no signal is the worst thing to do right now but then again everybody know writing a substentail answer may take weeks. Therfor a life sign of any kind would be nice.
I should’ve said this as well I just wanted to mimic a “discussion closed!” kind of scenario in non misunderstandable words ^^. EHG was always polite and very chill and they most likely stay that way.
It would be the best if they drown the discussion when they are setteled on something and want to carve it into stone. This topic is of some importance to me as you might have noticed 
and I simply want to get over with it because it starts to get tiresome to go in cycles with only so little constructive feedback from both extremes.
I hope this is not the case because if this is somewhat true I know what I do in the future ^^.
I talked about their vision in a lot of posts and people were angry about it. Just so you might remember… they announced their vision for the game on their kickstarter page and I ask myself where that vision went. Just picking the “vision” card when it suites someone is a bit bland.
I asked for the whole picture as well but still no answer from EHG. I asked for examples numbers and metrics so people can see what they talk about and have something substential and not a wall of text without any clear statement.
As I said in another post… it’s maybe 20-30% for and against trade and the rest of the players have no oppinion or no idea there is a debate on the topic because they don’t care. When it comes to the posts on this forum I don’t think it’s in favour of trade because mostly the same few vocal people make cycles ^^.
No matter how heated and emotional the answers in the trade sections have been I think everyone posses enough common sence to know such changes won’t come over night or in 0.9.0. All I want is an answer because if EHG say “We think gifting is enough and we don’t want any other systems in place or work on gifting!” I know what I’m in for but right now I’m simply confused and EHG looks like they might change their mind on each and every topic. That’s my problem thou and most likely not true but I’m unsure about them right now and I can’t help it.
Which clear vision should they be sticking to though? The one in the kickstarter where they envisioned an AH-like environment to trade gear for gold without trade overshadowing mobs as a source of loot, or their most recent post where they don’t want an economy? One could probably say that those to visions of trade are diametrically opposed.
I’m fine with the devs changing their minds as they iterate on stuff (because I’m an adult and I have kids so I know #### changes) while I can also be a bit disappointed that there’s not going to be an AH.
Just because a vision can be clear (“we want players to be able to trade with restrictions”) doesn’t mean that it can’t change for what they believe is the better (“we don’t think we can balance trade and drops in a way that doesn’t piss absolutely everybody off”, Trasochi goes into this at length in the paragraph before the section i quoted) but that’s not weakness. Nor does it mean that they might not be able to find an acceptable way to square the circle at some point in the future, remember how they said that it was impossible to gave +skills modifiers? Everything is impossible until its not.
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I personally think this is the statement from EHG that everyone should use as a foundation for any discussion about it. “Do it justice.” They’re still trying to figure it out. I think it’s highly disingenuous (yeah, I realize that’s going to have the doom and gloomers come at me but it’s for the white knights as well) to think that what we currently have in this iteration is exactly what we’ll have at 0.95, let alone 1.0.
Looking forward to March. Because play will happen. People will have all kinds of questions. There will be the inevitable “SEE I TOLD YOU SO NYAH NYAH NYAH”'s (and, it shouldn’t need to be said, but apparently it does - that’s not picking WHICH side is saying it. 
) But there will also be more hands on, more NEW thoughts, more ideas and LE will get to take those and run with 'em.
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Thank you, Captain obvious. But if you actual read the sentences, you’d see that one group predicts the game dying WITH trade. Either from people being bored from getting stuff too easily, RMT, drop rates, botters or any of the other multitude of boogeymen that reside on the intrawebz, just waiting to destroy the hapless game that grants them entry, via trade.
You only think it would be compromising, because their current stance happens to align with your personal preference. I could just as easily say they compromised on their initial vision due to discussions/feedback from internal testers with your same philosophy, but just won’t come forward and admit that a select few users are impacting the course of the game. That’s really the only way I can justify them having such a drastic 180 degree pivot from their original plans/statements… without having even delivered anything outside their hand-picked internal testers.
I really wish that you were right in this instance. But practical experience has shown, time and again, that stances like this lead to them merely testing the waters, seeing how much blowback comes from it, and then adjusting from there. Meaning, if people who are going to quit, quit, and the resistance to this shitty iteration of ‘gifting’ stays, they may not see a need to change it because there’s not enough opposition left. “We have diverted our resources elsewhere…”
At my last job, we snarkily referred to this as “Phase 2” of any project. We’d leave out stuff we didn’t think users needed/wanted, in the initial roll-out, then would sit back and see what was bitched about the most. Usually, we never released a “Phase 2”, and just left our users with what we gave them in Phase 1.
Not sure were this hostility comes from but well.
You were talking aobut BOTH sides and me as obvious as I am said only one side is doing it.
But I think there is some misunderstanding here.
The term “the game will die” might be subjective.
What I wanted to point at is:
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A lot of people who like trade and are upset with the recent announcement actually think the game will be less popular overall and might even “die” from not having enough success to sustain the game in the long run.
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While a lot of the people in the no-trade camp do not really think the game will “die” from RMT, drop rates, botters etc. they just think that it will impact their own experience too much.
I personally never saw someone say the game will not be successful with trade.
There was already a CT who said he was suprised and that they didn’t have tested it to the extend EHG mentioned or want to make non CT’s belive at least if my english knowledge isn’t misleading me. So you might say CT’s had no clue and you might be even right .
Sure they are because they like trade and in their minds the game will be less popular… the question is will it be less popular and if so by how many % of the playerbase. Right now people can’t even refund the game on steam to speak with their wallets so we’ll most likely never know. That’s some kind of clever marketing thou… just change stuff when people can’t refund anymore… happens with EA as it seems .
But hey these are the only arguments delivered… I’m confused.
I don’t thing the game will be drasticly hurt if there is trade or not and only a small fraction of the playerbase will move away from LE. If EHG is publishing the game when no other hack and slay is there to fill the void most likely everyone who bought the game will play it even if the game was the most trash H&S on earth.
A healthy dose of skepticism is ALWAYS warranted. But a healthy dose of knowing how to give constructive criticism is one thing I find lacking it MUCH of the internet. Instead it’s a instantaneous leap to the sky is falling. (this is not directed specifically at you.)
So, in light of this, while your gut is telling you one thing, I’d say EHG has at least demonstrated a pretty strong track record of listening and adapting. Which is why I keep reiterating how much I’m looking forward to March.
And here’s another funny anecdote. I’ll lay odds, whatever happens in March, there will be the people who, if they don’t get EXACTLY how they think it should be, will be raging in the street…forum. From both sides. Because apparently these days actual real compromise means 'if you’re not on my side than you’re on their’s."
Again, none of this is directed at you specifically. It’s an atmosphere that seems to be permeating this particular topic.
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The sad thing is this kind of drama is in most cases needed to get something moving. We don’t see this only in the internet there are a lot of movements out there that use these kind of tactics.
Imagine someone feeling betrayed and not powerfull enough to be heared in a healthy debate with facts… said people, no matter how sad an pathetic it is, can only answer with emotions when they are presented with facts while they take every word as an insult.
That’s the dark place our world is moving to but let’s not derail this to much.
There are simply people out there that feel the world is ending and the game is dieing and everything that was good and just comes to an end. I don’t think anyone here is in the “I don’t give a F about the game and I write some words because reasons…” boat and a lot of people are concerned on both sides of the debate. I think it’s okay to let people speak their mind no matter how doom and gloom things get.
I’d agree, though I don’t find it helpful, if it comes with actual constructive commentary.
- For me apples, for the most part, are too sweet. So I tend to gravitate toward more tart versions.
- ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MINE, Apples are the worst fruit EVAR!!! They’ve got too much sugar and it feels like your sucking on a bottle of soda when you eat them. People who like apples are like low hanging fruit.
One of those two - attempts - to leave out the drama. 
DISCLAIMER: This is entirely an example, and in no way is meant to reflect my choice of fruit.
Didn’t we already establish in this post that LE will have nothing to do with Apple? :kappa:
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Oh, yeah. I’m not necessarily saying that’s how it will play out, just that it’s a very common scenario. If the “yes trade” Gloom and Doomers leave, what incentive is there to revisit trade? This isn’t skepticism, it’s an honest question.
Those resources could be used to do many other things, than work on an already controvesial subject that has already (more or less) played its course with the playerbase. Unless they are hoping to win back the jilted lover(s), I wouldn’t imagine it would be something addressed ever again.
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It’s really just an inference, given the drastic shift in stance on the topic, and the sudden influx of staunch supporters on the issue (who previously weren’t as vocal about the possibility of trade bringing every evil available on the internet with it).
I have zero problem with the D3 “gifting” style of trade, I like it. But, trade is not a big deal to me in the first place so my opinion is pretty shallow.
With all the discussion going on maybe EHG will try to find some kind of a middle ground that can make the “trade” crowd a little happier.
Those “internal testers” would be employees, you can’t really blame the change in stance on the CTs.
That’s the bit that’s not true. Both sides were saying “daed gaem” if it didn’t align with their particular stance/viewpoint.
I thought it was macaroni they weren’t going to have anything to do with. Or cheese? Or something. TBH, “mac and cheese” isn’t a very big thing over here so I don’t think it’ll be a particularly big issue what form of pasta or dairy EHG do not wish to be associated with.
Because the devs know that a decently-sized segment of gamers enjoy trade (in an open form a’la D2/etc) and a lot just want to be able to give stuff to their friends that they found when their friends weren’t in the same party/zone. And I don’t think you’d get “enough” to leave for EHG to consider gifting sufficient since a certain % of new users will fall into that bucket so there will always be a portion of the community on the pro-trade side of the discussion.
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