Decrease boss health by half, increase ward value by x2 or x3, increase decay speed so it goes away after 10s.
Now you have a better shield for high DPS while actually making it easier for low DPS. All while using the same system.
3 Likes
Yes, the answer I gave.
But then look into the detail. ‘What does it actually do?’
Are you intending for a low-dps build to just stop attacking unless they have leech?
If you answer ‘yes’ then you go with this. If you answer ‘no’ then you can’t include this.
So once more:
‘Is this the intended solution for the existing issue?’
And my counter-question:
‘What is the major way to discern it from a simple invul phase when it acts functionally nigh identical for a low-dps build?’.
They can continue attacking and instead of 10s it takes 8-9s.
It makes it so that high DPS builds have to kill, let’s say 100k eHP, while a low DPS build only has to kill 10k eHP.
2 Likes
Is this a mentally acceptable level?
Which level is mentally acceptable?
How high is the portion of people for which this is not mentally acceptable?
When would a low-dps player just ‘stop’ attacking and treat it as a complete invulnerability phase?
And since that happens at a specific point… why not simply make it a invul phase and force everyone through it in a identical way since the time spent is nonetheless higher for low-dps then high-dps builds still, just not as extreme?
That’s not the goal of the mechanic though.
We know the distinct goal.
‘A mechanic which allows players to experience the boss mechanics like a low-dps player does, without negatively impacting low-dps players but only high-dps players.’
That’s the goal from EHG.
Does the solution uphold this goal?
Currently the issue is that low dps builds are affected too much while high dps builds aren’t affected enough. There’s also too many ward phases on too many enemies. Agreed?
Step 1. Reduce the number of ward phases (maybe one around half HP, or two: one at 66% and 33% each) with more ward per phases based on a percentage of Boss HP.
This would make the system feel less oppressive for all players.
Step 2. Remove Boss Ward from anything that is not an act boss (or equivalent), pinnacle boss, or mono boss.
This would limit how often the system pops up and stop it from being on mini-boss enemies that don’t need it.
Step 3. Lower the boss’s actual HP so that the ward phases act as buffers and not bonus HP.
This is to make sure that when a low dps build has to wait out more of the ward it’s not punishing them by overly inflating the boss HP through ward.
Step 4. Ramp up the Decay so it takes ~60s to expire if 0 damage is dealt. Setting a baseline for how long they expect a boss to take. Ideally a mid dps build should clear the ward in ~30s, a high dps build in ~15s, and a low dps in ~50s.
This would require the most tweaking to get right and would be a baseline amount as every build is different. The purpose of this is to make sure that high dps builds aren’t feeling nerfed and low dps builds aren’t being punished as the boss fight isn’t taking unnecessarily long but they’re still incentived to improve their dps for faster kill times.
Edit: obviously my numbers are up for debate and more being used as a “for example.”
It does, because if you decrease the boss health in half, it will actually be faster for low DPS builds than it currently is or was in 1.0.
And the high DPS build has to go through x10 the eHP because they mow down the ward as well, rather than letting it go down.
And you could further tweak this: make ward x5 full health and only require 5s to decay.
The point is: you can make this system work.
EDIT:
Because a invulnerable phase slows both the same, whereas with this system you can tweak it so it slows high DPS more.
3 Likes
That sounds familiar… Except now it’s a reasonable suggestion?
3 Likes
Yes
Step 1… yeah, sure?
Step 2, yes.
Step 3 is bad long-term but good for the mechanic, actively hinders balancing but… can be done at least.
At step 4 it falls apart.
A mid-dps build currently clears the ward in around 5-10 seconds, which is the intended goal after all. 30 seconds is the baseline it lasts without attacks. So it reduces it to 1/3rd.
For low-dps builds this time is around 20 seconds though, which is substantial.
And the outlier: for high-dps builds 2 ward-phases are 1 attack at times currently.
This disparity is so high that you can’t adjust it in such a way sadly. It would be nice ‘if we were there’ but sadly… we aren’t. Not even remotely.
Because if we were then the whole situation wouldn’t even need to exist, there would be no reason for the Ward mechanic anymore in the first place.
High-dps builds outperform by 1000%+ compared to mid-dps builds and by 2500%+ to low-dps builds currently.
Balance is meant to achieve a line which is roughly inside the 200% disparity between low-end and top-end, which means the highest base-line build does around 3 times the damage from the lowest baseline build. Which is… acceptable, still a bit high but doable.
And by that time there is no Ward mechanic needed anyway.
That’s not an answer to my question, I don’t know what question you’re answering there.
I’m not comparing between pre-existing situations, I don’t care, and neither should you.
This is the question if it’s upheld with the solution.
The answer though is clear: ‘No’.
It affects a low-dps player more then a high-dps player.
Hence by definition you can’t see it as ‘success’.
So here I’ll go into comparison then, because that’s a important aspect to understand:
A invulnerability phase affects everyone over the spectrum in the same way. Hence 10 seconds invul means low-, mid- and high-dps builds will need to wait… 10 seconds.
The current - and without fault all suggested changes - affect different builds differently. If a high-dps character is affected by 10 seconds then a mid- is by 30 and a low by 60 seconds.
So functionally… the invul phase is infinitely closer to the goal then the Boss Ward system.
That’s important to understand.
Does anyone here like invul phases just for the sake of showcasing what the boss can do rather then having a distinct meaning… like a special attack or animation?
And I’ll even point out the thought-mistake you have in your example:
This measurement is of no meaning.
We’re talking about effective disruption caused for different builds.
Does the low-dps build need to invest more time to get through this mechanic meant to slow down a high-dps build or not?
You need seconds as a measure, not damage, hp or anything else.
This is out value for comparison.
If at any point a low-dps build even has 1 ms more then a high-dps build then a invul phase is superior to achieve the goal.
The system enforces that a low-dps player always has 1 ms more effect on them then a high-dps player. Hence the core-design of the system can’t be adjusted to avoid that.
This is all I’m saying.
It does the work backwards simply. Value-wise we can’t ‘fix’ it.
Then what do you care about? Your objection was that the current system penalizes low DPS builds while doing little to high DPS ones.
I proposed a change that would benefit low DPS builds (less eHP to kill) and penalize high DPS ones (a lot more eHP to kill).
How does it affect them more? They literally need to mow down x10 more eHP.
We’re not talking about the current system. We’re talking about the one I proposed.
If you use 2 5s invulnerable phases, high DPS will require 1s+5s+1s+5s+1s=13s.
A low DPS will require 5s+5s+5s+5s+5s=25s.
So invulnerable phases affects low DPS much more than high DPS.
But if you tweak the current system you can make it so that it takes about the same time for both to kill the boss. Just decrease the health and increase the ward/decrease the decay until phases are similar for both.
‘Does the mechanic do what it’s intended to do?’
That’s what I care about.
I talked against DR as well, for a reason.
We have 1 viable option to make the current situation ‘better’, which is adjusting values. But is a time-intensive balancing problem, so I’m pushing that to the side. Could be done, ‘not worth it’ though.
Then we have 2 options which are infinitely better, one which is very easy to make and one which is extremely time-intensive but has a good long-term outcome.
The first is ‘make it a invul phase’. Nobody likes invul phases, the current system is though even worse then a invul phase… so this is actually an improvement.
The second is ‘focus on the balance as it naturally solves it’. Which is the high time-investment method but does solve it by design automatically.
A low-dps player needs more seconds in the ward phase then a high-dps player. This means comparatively it affects a low-dps player more.
They already have the issue that their fight is more dangerous and more drawn out by the fact that they have to endure or avoid more attacks from the boss, this mechanic causes them to endure or avoid even more comparatively then before.
And as said, time is the only factor which is of importance there as time is the segment which defines the danger for our character in a boss-fight.
Offense is the best defense for a reason.
This… what? Nono, that’s not upholding.
You’re explaining a ‘invul phase’ there, which yes… is better!
How can low-dps and high-dps have both a 5 second phase?
Neither their Ward-phase nor their ‘normal’-phase are identical.
For a high dps it looks at best:
1s + 4s + 1s + 4s + 1s
And for a low dps:
5s + 5s + 5s + 5s + 5s
Now if we remove the ‘normal phases’ which are the baseline health we’re left with:
4s + 4s
vs
5s + 5s
Which means a high dps character saves 2 seconds compared to a low dps character.
That means the low dps character is ‘punished’ (yeah, not the right word but I don’t have another one) by 2 seconds extra fight time in comparison.
Hence a invul mechanic causes both to at least have ‘10 seconds’ of the boss showcasing skills.
Which is the next step towards a functioning system in the logical progression.
The current one causes low dps to be affected more.
The invul phase causes both to be affected the same (improvement, low-dps has no downsides at least for this duration compared to high dps)
Our goal though is that the numbers are switched, a low dps needs less time investment then a high dps.
That’s our end-result needed.
I think I found your issue.
High dps builds are always supposed to kill bosses faster than mid dps builds, and mid dps builds are always supposed to kill bosses faster than low dps builds.
Kill Speed goes as follows High > Mid > Low.
Boss Ward’s ONLY function is to give a boss a chance to show a high dps player what for while not limiting a low dps players ability to kill the boss.
Boss Ward should (and can) achieve this by having massive amounts of ward that Decay quickly enough.
##Note: the following numbers are “for example” only and not representative of how I believe the final system SHOULD work.
If it takes 3s for the Decay to kick in and 7s to Decay with 0 damage dealt, a low DPS build is spending 8-10s on ward phases while high dps builds are spending 3-5s on ward phases because they have to chew through all the ward before the decay kicks in. Effectively giving the boss far more HP for a high dps to chew through.
If we say a low dps build does 100 dps and a high dps build does 2600 dps (2500%+ more than low dps). The boss has 5000 HP before boss ward. This takes a high dps build 2s and a low dps build 50s.
Add in boss ward at the 5x the boss hp.
The boss now has 30,000 eHP (5000 HP + 25000 ward). It takes 3s before the ward Decay kicks in. The high dps player does 7800 damage in that time frame. Let’s say it takes them another 3s to clear the remaining 7200 (2x faster than if the ward didn’t Decay) = +6s on kill time, the low dps build deals 300 damage leaving 24700 before the Decay kicks in. They barely remove anything from the ward as it decays and it takes the full 7s of Decay = +10s on kill time.
High DPS still killed the boss faster but is now 6s slower than they were. A 300% decrease in kill speed. Meanwhile the low dps build only adds 10s to their kill time. Which is a 20% decrease in kill speed.
Literally it affects low dps builds less than high dps builds.
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Yes! Now you got it!
And sure, it affects the high dps character ‘more in terms of percentile’, as I’ve declared to be true.
But that’s not the goal of the mechanic as I mentioned.
The goal is to bring the numbers inside the boss-ward system to a negative amount for low-dps compared to high-dps.
In seconds.
Not in damage.
The current implementation is a less functional method of providing a invul phase since it does the job of a invul phase worse.
The 5s is the invulnerable phase. All builds have to wait the exact same time until it finishes.
As for the rest, I’ll just condense everything into this:
You can simply change numbers so that both builds require pretty much the same time with the current system. You can adjust so that the health is low and the ward is high and both feel the same during the fight and both have to deal with the mechanics. All it requires is tweaking 3 numbers.
The whole point of this discussion is if ward is viable and it is. And it’s even possible while only making minimal changes, rather than implementing a new system like invulnerable phases.
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Let’s tweak my numbers.
If we say a low dps build does 100 dps and a high dps build does 2600 dps (2500%+ more than low dps). The boss has 5000 HP before boss ward. This takes a high dps build 2s and a low dps build 50s.
Add in boss ward at the 10x the boss hp.
The boss now has 55,000 eHP (5,000 HP + 50,000 ward). It takes 3s before the ward Decay kicks in. The high dps player does 7,800 damage in that time frame. Let’s say it takes them another 9s to clear the remaining 47,200 (2x faster than if the ward didn’t Decay) = +12s on kill time, the low dps build deals 300 damage leaving 54,700 before the Decay kicks in. They barely remove anything from the ward as it decays and it takes the full 7s of Decay = +10s on kill time.
It now takes the low dps build 20% more time to kill the boss than before.
It now takes the high dps build 600% more time.
I could keep going to get a ward Multiplier that makes high dps builds take longer than low dps builds in general, but that’s not the purpose of Boss Ward.
The goal is not to give high and low dps the same “window of time to kill the boss” it’s to “give the boss more time to defend itself against high dps builds”
Yes, then it works! Infinitely better then with Ward.
You always have the same downtime at least. For low-dps this mechanic then is not ‘comparatively harder’ then for high-dps.
But that doesn’t describe the Boss Ward, this describes the ‘better’ solution (non-optimal still) of a invul mechanic, outright.
So all those extra numbers of ‘how much ward, how much decay’ have suddenly no meaning as no matter how you adjust them… the low-dps always inherently gets more time in it.
This goes counter to ‘Low dps are affected less’ in combination with ‘showcasing the abilities of the boss’.
A ‘on/off’ method is already simpler and more functional.
The inverse time-need is another system in total, which would need a combination of Boss Ward and DR to happen, which means Boss Ward based on DPS, which would need a pre-defined method to math out the actual DPS with expected buffs from a build at any time.
Which we don’t have.
Less viable then a invul mechanic, and a invul mechanic is already a bad design.
So the Boss Ward is a worse design then that.
Yes, as said ‘in comparison to each other it’s true’.
But still my argument of ‘The low dps build needs more time in seconds inside the mechanic then the high dps build’ also upholds.
And that one sentence there holds true no matter the numbers.
So…
Why not simply make it a invul system as a middle-step before finding a better solution?
It does the job after all better as it at least ‘doesn’t punish the low dps build’ by needing more time compared to the high dps build.
Also it enforces the high dps build to experience the mechanic no matter of how high the disparity in damage is. 1 million % more? Still same time and enforced.
I solely think this is a bias against a invul system in that case.
Because invul systems feel bad and are to be avoided… but we’re solely sold one which is even worse then that.
If you tweak ward enough, there is objectively no difference between that and invulnerability. If you bump ward to be so high that even high DPS builds can’t finish the ward before the decay kicks in, both builds will wait the same time.
2 Likes
Exactly!
So why not use a invul right out of the box? 
That’s my point there.
We have a simple… easy to implement… no-balance-needed method.
Instead we got a balance-needed method… harder to implement… complex one.
So? Switch it to invul!
First step done!
No ‘punishment’ (still not right word but found no other) for low dps builds!
I still don’t get the arguing ‘for’ the Boss Ward.
By now it solely seems like ‘Chance is bad, we wanna keep the current status quo for reason… it is like it is’.
Because changing it to invulnerable phases would require massive changes to the code and changing ward to do the same thing requires changing 3 values?
Sorry to say…
I don’t trust in those words as neither you nor I know the specific code behind that whole area there and it could go either way.
So that’s up for debate without a basis.
Which leaves us only ‘it’s functionally superior’ for the time being unless we know the respective code since we can’t infer in any manner if your comment is true or false. Could be… could be not.
Edit:
Status: Undefined
Bosses have health, ward has a value (either static or a percentage of health), that ward has a decay rate. It doesn’t matter what the code is, it’s 3 values.
1 Like