first of all, let me say that I love Last Epoch. I love it because it allows some creativity with builds, targetting loot is accessible and fun, and I think you guys did some good with class identities.
I’m a casual ARPG enjoyer, I used to be pretty well ranked in an infamous MOBA, and a theorycrafter on that MOBA for some competitive teams. I’m now retired from that, and came back to my first ARPG love.
I will mainly focus on the theorycrafting side of the board in my review, because I think you guys could do far better reguarding the gearing experience, by relying on the strong side of your game.
Forging is awesome. Being able to tweak items for yourselves and your build is a fantastic experience. To be honest, it’s a shame ARPGs took so long to introduce that kind of system. You should emphasis even more on those possibilities in my opinion, this is a system you’ve done great !
Set items. Well, plenty of things have been said about sets. They are mostly currently useless. It’s sad, because this is the way you could allow people to do amazing builds. I want to use Boardman’s, but you can’t. In my opinion, sets should be withdraw from the game, or reworked really fast, because they are really confusing for players.
It allows me to bounce on another subject. For example, on Boardman’s set, health granted is not affected by healing effectiveness. It’s not my job to know why, but that’s a design flaw in my opinion. Here is another way to say it : buff everything.
I’ve been around metagame for many years. It is pretty logical in a PvP and competitive atmosphere but really, I absolutely don’t get why it should exist in a PvE perspective. Nowadays, everyone can just go on dedicated website and copy builds. I don’t think people here want a similar experience as PoE, where every now and then, the meta shifts and people copy the new meta. In that regard, I think some skills and items are terribly nerfed, compared to others.
The best example of that is cold damage as a Shaman. I was able to identify a niche (of course I wasn’t alone and it wasn’t long before someone posted a similar build - aka Frostquake), for a build that would do 15 times more damage than any other passive and skill setting. The build is not really fun, requires no skill and almost no specific items. It’s just a niche, something you probably didn’t intended. I think the best answer would be buffing most of nodes and damages. And let’s be honest, with a non-cracked build at the moment, most 200+ corruption monoliths are impossible to achieve.
Let me be clear, I’m not saying “buff everything so the game becomes easy”, I’m saying “buff everything so a lot of builds can achieve late game”.
I feel like Last Epoch is in a situation where it can achieve something different, other than another “copy / paste and spend enough time ARPG to be strong”. Some of your design philosophy like the addition of dodge seems to show that you are heading towards something different. I truly think you should put effort in what you do best : something different. Allow player to create and shift builds.
Again, I like the game. And I think you already did a good game, and I’m excited to see where the future leads.
Using the Shattered Lance set to get a massive amount of % increased melee cold damage? Yeah, Boardman did that several years ago on a Pally.
The concept of a meta exists in PvE for the same reason it exists in PvP, the meta builds are more efficient at killing stuff, whether that’s other players or mobs/bosses.
They can, that’s why a meta exists & shifts with balance patches & new discoveries. If all builds were balanced to within a few % of each other, there would still be a meta because there would still be a few builds that are better than others, even if the difference is tiny (which it isn’t at the moment, obviously).
Because it’s health granted, not healing. For the same reason why leech isn’t affected by healing effectiveness and healing isn’t affected by leech stats. Why it’s not a straight up heal I don’t know. But it not being affected by healing effectiveness is fairly obvious (it even says soon the item).
Thank you for your answer, but you basically play with words.
What I mean is your comment don’t address the core of my post. Being there is not enough place for effective late game builds because of a restrictive meta.
In other words, my opinion is that a metagame should be fought, not cherished.
It’s not, imo. This might help: Defences explained. Scroll down to the Sustain section.
I get that it might be confusing for some players. It could help to have sustain effects “tagged” in the source description, a la [Leech], [Health Regen], [Healing] or [Health on action].
Not having a metagame (at all) does imply that all skills need to have the same scaling with respect to relevant char parameters. It’s like 50x the same skill but different graphics. That’s boring. Thus, if you want to introduce different scaling, higher damage skills should have disadvantages like clunkiness, single target, glass canon status while casting, whatever… Which can be overcome by skill (not everyone can do it = not so meta) or the right support combo (usable for everyone = meta).
The essence of what makes this kind of game interesting for me - the search for the one undiscovered superior build - leads to metas automatically. Keep the same metas forever: boring. Skills have to change for the game to stay attractive. To avoid power creep metas have to be nerved from time to time, which doesn’t sit well with a part of the player base, who claim that them not being able to play the fourth version of their meta build character in the new content patch kills their fun. It probably does indeed. A significant part of the PoE Reddit toxicity stems from that fact alone. But PoE player numbers increase, so people seem to be able to cope with it … while having fun.
Take a look at PoE, their system is at least 20-30 times in magnitude more efficient and in-depth, doing the same without the automated fail-state to boot.
It’s a mediocre crafting system which is ‘in-between’ the free range ones out there and the more fixed deterministic/fixed ones.
Path of Exile and Torchlight Infinite offer a better solution for the open ones, Grim Dawn a better solution for the deterministic ones.
Because we got an economy, which makes it inherently a PvP environment, just not in the traditional way.
This… is untrue.
The ‘generic’ directions given by the developers are generally able to achieve 250-300 corruption, with a few bad exceptions given.
But I agree that a general sweeping buff for ‘generic’ builds is more or less a necessity by now given the disparity between builds and the existence of boss-ward.
Agreed, but that’s not the restrictive meta, it’s a misinterpretation of the situation.
The core mechanics are partially restrictive which limits the build directions, which is likely due to EHGs lack of balancing ability as they can’t handle keeping them inside a specific expected range… which is already the case despite those quite severe limitations.
Exactly, the worst kind of game one can have plainly spoken.
Mmmmm, 'k. I’d have thought precision in terms used was fairly important, otherwise one gets confused (as you appear to have with the whole heal/health granted thing), bugs & unclear terms notwithstanding (which this specific case isn’t).
If there’s a restrictive meta, then it’s because the players/community decide there is one. Yes, skill balance is “off” & needs a lot more improvement, but that’s mainly an issue if one approaches the game like a job, I must play the most effective build possible otherwise I’m just wasting my time. It happens in every arpg, as I said, there will alqays be a meta, but you don’t have to be a slave to it if you don’t want to.
I would agree if build disparity wasn’t as massive as it is, between ‘core’ builds provided.
I’m saying that regularly, a ‘healthy’ meta is when there’s strong builds but the basis is functioning as supposed for all content available.
With boss-ward a large chunk doesn’t, and the others blast through. Given that we have the corruption system which is in direct causation of providing more loot which is in direct causation of possible progression speed this means that the balancing needs to be ‘tighter’ compared to other systems.
That’s not the case though, and until that’s at least adjusted to a degree the current state is that those complaints are viable… because it becomes a ‘job’ to play the game if you’re not playing a meta build given that your progression will take magnitudes longer to reach the end of the content while others breeze through while falling asleep. That’s how bad it currently is and it needs to be handled.
Yeah, if build “balance” was better then they could dispense with the boss ward and have mob/boss balance closer to what they want without external shenanigans reqyired to attempt to force it (& I agree that the most OP builds are barely affected by boss ward).
Yeah, that’s why Horus proposed a better working method then Ward/DR, hence his ‘wound’ mechanic which gradually reduces the potential max life of a boss, meaning it has a guaranteed minimum life-time.
And I proposed balance methodologies to solve it namely:
Nerf top-tier builds and adjust all non-boss content accordingly.
Buff low-power builds and adjust all boss content accordingly.
Why? Because EHG demands that bosses are a big challenge, hence normal content in comparison needs to provide a respective power level, which isn’t given at the moment.
Top-tier builds breeze through content anyway, nothing is done to adjust that, focus is on bosses. Hence buffing bosses substantially to compete with the higher level builds (not extremely broken ones) would be a feasable way, hence barring progression through that challenge method overall.
Alternatively reducing the power level of those builds respectively so bosses don’t need said adjustment, instead changing overall content accordingly to fit the generally perceived challenge level.
Over time it can gradually change, but we have a pre-established perception level currently and that needs to be upheld, EHG basically said ‘we made a mistake and don’t know how to fix it swiftly’ hence option 2 is the better one, which is raising power level of builds and substantially buffing bosses, then gradually adjusting content to be in a fitting overall place again.
But for now nothing major is done, hasn’t been in 0.9 (where it was existing), 1.0 or 1.1 actually. Hence it’s a active and major problem. Newly existing problems can be big but excused, long-standing ones cannot.
I agree. What is a build? Seems to be the definition of a build is one that can get to 300 corruption.
If I roll a shaman and I put; Tempest Strike, Cyclone, Maelstrom, Tornado, Storm Totem on the tool bar can I make a build out of that? No? Then what is that collection of skills, passive and uniques that attempt to support those skills? It seemed reasonable to me that those skills could be put together into a build that could reach endgame, or clear Julra T4. I mean, isn’t that why EHG created those skills, thematically? I couldn’t do it.
Is something not a build unless it can clear all bosses at 300 corruption? Is build defined by what it can do?
Personally I just mean a particular collection of skills, skill points & passive points. If it can’t do insert arbitrary level of difficulty here then it’s a “bad” build, but it’s still a build.
I think we’re on the same page here. So what’s the bar for a ‘decent’ build?
I think (to put myself out here and not just try to trap you) it’s being able to clear what EHG says is the end game bar. Since EHG hasn’t actually said what the company thinks it is, I defer to Mike. Further, let’s give Mike a bit of slack in that he said it while streaming, and he said it’s what he thinks, so let’s acknowledge that it’s a rough measure.
All those caveats, I’d say that a decent build can clear all the mono bosses at 300 corruption with an ‘averagely’ skilled player. And by ‘averagely’ skilled lets say 50% of the players can clear the boss in 3 tries with a decent build, but really they should be one-shotting the boss (if they know the fight).
Reason I’m asking is I’ve started to say, “decent build”, in some of my posts and I was thinking about how I didn’t actually know what I meant by “decent build”.
That will depend on the player. For altoholics usually just reaching empowered is considered decent.
But from EHG’s point of view it would be:
-Can reach 320c, since that’s the highest requirement for anything in the game.
-Can kill Aberroth, since that’s the pinnacle boss.
2nd could be optional if the player doesn’t care about pinnacle bosses.
Altough, if you can complete everything in the game already, I’d argue it’s not a decent build, but a good one.
Mike avoids saying good/bad builds, but just says 300c is the mark for a “successful” build.
It wasn’t talked about a ‘specific group of people’ but rather ‘the overall gamer playing this game’.
Which was stated as ‘50% in 3 tries’ to be a ‘decent build’ for clarification.
That means we’re far detached from that as the 50% mark is a viable option to go for… and while I personally depict myself as a ‘ok-ish player’ I know that I’m at the top 10-20% in terms of skill. Which means a looooot of people play the game which are vastly less skilled then I am.
And while there’s a good chunk of builds which bring you into that range even when you’re half blind and playing with your feet rather then using your hands (like a Wraithlord build, Static Orb Acolyte or Falconer) there’s also a fairly large chunk of core builds presented in the game (which I depict as those shoved in your face quite clearly) which don’t even come close, like quite a few primalist or rogue builds tend to showcase… especially rogue, welcome Dark Quiver old useless friend nobody sane will ever use willingly.
So the 320c threshold you stated by itself should be the 50% basis achievable within a fixed frame of play-time.
And plainly spoken… I don’t think EHG has a friggin clue on the needed play-time for their content in any viable manner. It’s a measurement I hold GGG in high regards for, balancing accordingly… but sadly not mentioned (and sometimes outright not seen like with LE) by many other developers.
Aberroth is the one and only pinnacle content in the game, everything else is ‘baseline’ currently. Always was intended to be that way and it doesn’t distinct itself otherwise. We could say T4 dungeon bosses also fall into that category at best.
So someone who may or may not get through the campaign then. They certainly wouldn’t be someone who gets to & kills Aberroth. Maybe they get through normal monos & into early Empowered?
Given I don’t think that EHG have said where the “average” player stops before either leaving till next season or starting an alt, I think that what we consider “the average player” likely says more about us than “the average player”.
I’d like to try that build(s).
Pre-mp I’d probably agree with you, but given they now have data from how players are doing in mp, that’s incorrect.
I only came back to ARPGs 2 years ago and so far, yeah, this is my experience with all of them.
Even in PVE, I admit sometimes I need help. I try my own thing but a lot of times wind up looking up builds to see what I am missing, etc because my effectiveness lacks after a point.
Looking up builds frustrates me too though. I instantly see “Nihlis necklace” or “Omnis” etc and have to really dig deeper to find levelling builds. Oh and Red Ring. I have been trying to get that since the game launched!
Anyway, I enjoyed your thoughts and think they are very appropriate for the feedback thread. Sorry some folk instantly shot you down.
My experience on this forum is that it WAS great because people really tried to help each other but it is quickly filling up with folk that want to lord it over on everyone else and belittle. You’re perfectly fine for having thoughts and leaving them in feedback.
Thank you very much for your answer, “food for thought”.
It helped me clarify my thoughs. I think a build is a collection of skills, indeed, wich synergize with items. I think if you plan a build, it should work.
I think the Last Epoch team did a great job at suggesting build ideas, build lines with some original ideas. For example, when I see Hakar’s Phoenix (https://www.lastepochtools.com/db/items/UAzAcCYGZyA), I’m thinking : nice, I could work on a fire pet build. But it stops here as the Primalist doesn’t have any fire scaling passive or transformation.
Again, I’m not in the “game is dead, game is terrible train”, I love the game, and it’s a great game. I just think those kind of ideas should be pushed further to allow more diversity and possibilties.
To be honest, I’m a bit amazed by the lack of imagination from ARPG players reguarding what their game could be. For example, when people quote PoE as a reference because it has tons of players.
I used to theorycraft for a highly competitive PvP game and I think that PoE is the most boring game ever. A “good build” in PoE is something you can play without thinking anymore and facetank stuff. The more you play, the more you become stronger, the less you have to think about buttons you press until you can just spam 3 buttons and clear maps. Is this really what player want ? And please, difficult doesn’t mean complex, few statistics can be used to determine niche OP builds each seasons. It is just time consuming (grinding), there is no strategy, no “skill” involved here ; or at least this is not what I call intelligence and design.
I think Last Epoch is doing far better.
Again, if you enjoy PoE, copying builds from some content creator each season and so on, it’s obviously perfectly fine, I’m sharing a personal feeling here.
