Lol, no. It literally does the opposite. It demoralizes players when they see others vendor their 3rd drop of an item for the day, while they have been farming for the past 80h.
Orion’s eye. Enough said.
Uhm, yes you can, because the unique system is the same one.
It seems to me you are comparing apples and oranges, in a way. RNG and bad luck is a factor in either system, one without an economy and one with one. In one system a player may be jealous of another player’s specific unique item, in the other a player may be enviour of sheer wealth or individual highly valuable drops.
The item you mentioned is a very specific endgame chase item, which is not required to complete any content whatsoever in the game. It’s something to hunt at the very, very end of the game, which is fine. You are not locked out of anything without it.
You cannot directly compare to PoE because PoE is designed - from the ground up - with a trade economy in mind. LE is not, and very clearly so. Many elements of LE’s current iteration would quite simply not work in a trade economy, or would be trivialized.
What are you even on about? One system has a bad luck protection, the other doesn’t. They are nothing alike. Economy system is 100% opposite of a SSF system. Jealousy has nothing to do with it. Trading allows players to get the items they want reliably. Something that is far more motivating than “play for 1000h and you may get an Orion’s eye”. Obviously I’m using the most extreme example, but there are other high tier items like Salt the Wounds and Omnis, that people want and having to pray over 100h+ without seing a drop in the most extreme end of “item rarity” scale, is sheer insanity.
No it’s not. Chris has said it multiple times, in various streams that the trade system was done “as things were progressing”. Your statment is a fallacy, PoE was never designed from the ground up with a trading system in mind.
This is a dumb argument, because it applies to any high tier item. So if we have all of the good drops gated behind 1kh of gameplay, on avarage, it would be fine, right? Ofcourse not. Then people will just not play.
I’m not sure why you’re being so hostile.
It also seems you don’t quite get the comparison you yourself made. There is no “bad luck protection” in an economic setting. In PoE there is always a higher level of build, only accessible to higher wealth (vis-a-vis game time spent and knowledge). Comparable to, as you say “playing and praying for 100h+”.
Now, whether or not this or that approach is more “motivating” and fun, that’s a subjective matter. I personally enjoy both, my main point is simply that LE is currently designed with SSF principles in mind, and a trade economy would break several of them. It would essentially be a very different game, and would require several reworks, right down to mods on items.
Having certain, very low drop chance, highly desirable drops in the game is very good for the game, whether that be high runes or other comparable ultra-rare uniques in Diablo, Mirror or similarly rare items in PoE. The existence of rare outliers does not work as an argument to describe the entire itemization system as punitive or exclusive.
I’m not going to debate PoE too much here, it doesn’t fit. Suffice it to say, GGG stand strongly behind the principle of Trade, and design and balance their game around it. You can nitpick at which point of the early Beta process this started, it’s not really pertinent to the topic though.
You argued that builds were gated behind ultra-rare drops. Mechanically, this isn’t true. Certain ways of scaling are, either for defense or offense. The build, functionally, are not. And you do not require any of these endgame ways to scale in order to “beat” the game.
It’s a debate style, I’m not hostile. xD Don’t take it personal.
Yes, there is. You have a guaranteed drop of currency, with which you can buy stuff you want/need.
Indeed, so don’t dismiss demotivation with jealousy. A lot of people prefer determenistic RNG to play and pray.
M, k? Did I ever argue against that? No… The difference is, you can buy those items in other aRPGs. I had 4k hours in Marvel Heroes and I never saw a Zod rune, but a friend of mine with like 500h had one. Why should I get punished for having bad luck? Why should I get declined an access to those items? Do you think it’s good for the game for 90% of the playerbase (let’s face it, very few people are gonna clock 1k hours) to be denied access of highend rare items? At the very least, that directly cuts into game sales.
Plague Bearer
Salt the Wounds
Morditas’ Reach
Aurora’s Time Glass
Except you also have a market in play, and supply/demand. So if a particular item/build style is extremely popular, expect to have to get lucky or invest more farming in order to afford it. Ergo there is a certain balance at play here which equalizes which you perceive as the great advantage of a trade environment. The rest is down to drop tuning in either system
I’m not dismissing it at all, being envious of others’ drops and wanting “that” too is what ARPGs are all about in multiplayer. It’s a good thing to have that, rather than everyone having everything too easily, and nobody caring about what X is wearing or where he/she got it, because it’s too easy/obvious. My point was simply that this state of envy exists in both approaches, just in slightly different form (see above).
This is a logical fallacy, and basically the same as arguing people need to have access to raid content in WoW because they paid for a sub or whatever. It’s quite the contrary, the existence of hard to achieve rewards and long term chase items is something that motivates more players to engage, rather than everyone having the same. Case-in-point: the long decline of WoW since the introduction of LFR. But i’m on a tangent here, so i’ll bring it back to trade and drops: playing an ARPG should never entail being entitled to obtaining every single item in the game. If that were easily accomplishable within an average player’s timespan and without insane luck, the entire itemization system, and with it the main reason to keep playing, would be defunct.
You are not being “denied” access, you always have something to strive for. It’s a matter of perspective.
There may be some examples - but since you are able to freely respec within your mastery, and crafting is so easy, any mastery is fully capable of “beating” the game with numerous builds without ever obtaining a specific “build-unlocking” unique. Viewing these items as some privilege or right any player should have guaranteed access to is pretty weird to me, and goes counter to designing interesting and compelling loot, in my opinion. When everything is currency, nothing stands out anymore.
I can’t think of any builds that flat out don’t work if you don’t have a particular unique (apart from low life builds that require either Exsanguinous/Last Steps of the Living, ideally both). Those uniques make certain builds work a lot better (as far as I’m aware).
That’s exactly why trading has to be banned. The second you make that ultra-rare item more available, the Devs have to lower the drop rate, and that hurts players who SSF and/or don’t trade.
Sorry, EHG is on top of this issue. There will be no trading in the classical sense. The Bazaar is highly RNG as to what player’s shops you even see, and what those players have listed for sale. If you want build-defining items in Last Epoch, you will be subject to the drop rate chance that EHG has defined for it.
Enough said.
To me it’s content gating “srug”. I’m under the philosophy of “If I pay to play the game, I should have a reasonable access to everything”. Having to spend 1k hours in order to see a single item, is not reasonable (sorry for the late eddit).
You literally can not scale bleed/poison with crit multi without Salt the Wounds, aka a build defining unique.
You can not play frostbite mele (for whatever reason xD) without Mordita’s Reach.
And so on…
Again, a question of scaling, not mechanics. You can play bleed/poison just fine without this item. Same goes for the other items you listed, afaik. I simply allowed for certain exceptions to exist, but my original point still stands. You aren’t being forced to wait for certain items in order to experience specific skills or build types - you’re simply talking about scaling variants.
You could also spend 10 hours and get lucky and obtain it, and it would feel amazing. And then maybe next Season you don’t. That’s part of the RNG which makes loot-driven ARPGs so fun, in my opinion. If everything is too predictable, it loses appeal rapidly. Case-in-point would be D3 2.0 to me, where virtually nobody plays a new season for longer than a few days outside a tiny handful of people, because your character is basically “done” within hours and you’re just farming incremental upgrades of the same gear. That’s the death of ARPG loot-hunting imo.
Scaling is a mechanic. If scaling wasn’t a build mechanic, how would you even differentiate multiple Warpath, or Hammer throw, or Javelin builds.
I think we’re just using different terms here.
My point is unique items in LE aren’t required in order to experience certain skills and playstyles. They only offer things like different ways of scaling, procs, etc. So you’re not being “denied” anything outside of a power upgrade for a specific way of scaling.
Back to my point.
It feels like you want to gate items, because it’s fun for you to chase them, while I want reliable access, because I want to try them out and play with them and I’m pretty sure which side brings more players to the game.
The game is in a state right now where you will obtain niche items, “build enablers” and specific Exalts as you go. You just won’t obtain it all predictably, which is part of basic ARPG loot philosophy. Games which have risked watering this down too much or making access too easy (D3 2.0) have gotten burned by it. It doesn’t work.
Ergo the argument with “which side brings more players” would also fall pretty flat.
Clearly, no one is going to shift you. And you’re not going to shift him (or me). Personally, I think the idea of a bazaar is a mistake. But I’ll wait for EHG’s implementation before commenting further.
Debatable. As I said, there are still plenty of I tems I haven’t seen drop, regardless of reliably farming 300+ corruption. From what I read, items like Omnis and Orion’s eye won’t drop until I clock at least 500h, which is half of my entire play time in D3. To me that’s not reasonable. We are talking about more time spend, than any avarage player would ever will,
Another fallacy, because D3’s issue is definitely not loot drops, but redundancy,
PoE’s most played leagues where those where highend items were accessiable and the big fall off came with the nerfs to Harvest, something players really enojoyed. Harvest was watering down of content and was making access to high end items too easy, according to the developers, yet players seem to enjoy it a ton.
Well I think my fundamental position is not against Trade per se, but just against forcing LE to copy PoE in every way. I think it works very well as SSF right now, with room for more to come, and believe an open trade economy would be a mistake (for all the reasons I listed exhaustively in the thread earlier).
There is room for different approaches to the subject on the ARPG market, and I think people should probably not expect every game to imitate the competition to such a degree. In fact, it’s probably not advisable from a business perspective.
Oh, I 100% agree. Trading in PoE is awful. Imo, trading in LE should be via action house model, which ironically is even further apart from yours xD .
See basically the entire thread for a litany of arguments against this model.