I’m not asking LE to be POE. But I do think trade is fundamental in making items valuable to me. Having resources and currency and being “rich” is how I enjoy my ARPGs. Not by the number of builds I explore in a league.
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And that’s perfectly valid. Different people have different things they enjoy within the same genre. I’m saying the genre is large enough to allow for different games to explore different approaches. LE doesn’t have to accommodate every taste, and in fact is asking for trouble if it tries to.
Did the thread move an inch from “people wanting instant grab of their BiS item rather than actually play the game to get random loot”?
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Nope…
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This is true. I’ll just be very sad if it doesnt.
To be fair, there will be some people extremely sad if LE doesn’t incorporate fishing, player housing, mounts, etc. They see the “shiny” in other games, and “WANT IT NOW!” in LE, and get super sad face when EHG doesn’t add it.
Down the line there may be room to have different economic game modes in LE. But right now I don’t see how an open trade economy can be made to work within the framework that is the current iteration of LE’s drops/crafting.
But that’s just a damage modifier. You “can’t scale” ignite chance from bleed chance without Maehlin’s gloves, but you can still get a load of both so all it’s like is just an additional load of damage boosting affixes. IMO, not build defining.
Apologies if this point has been brought up before (this convo is hella long), but this debate always seems to devolve into Full Open Trade vs Pure SSF. If the end goal is to incentivize finding items yourself, but be able to unload extremely powerful items you yourself don’t want to use there are a couple middle grounds to achieve that. People always talk about soulbound/account bound items, but item tagging can fill any number of roles. Here’s a couple completely different options to augment trade:
- ALLOW AN ITEM TO ONLY BE TRADED 1 TIME
Once an item acquires 2 player tags it can’t be traded any further. You could even see the tags listed on the item to know who found the item in the first place as a cool novelty. Basically when you pickup an item you are branding it with your character for all to see. Only 1-2 players will ever hold that item. The one who found it, and possibly the one who traded for it.
This completely destroys “item flipping” that leads to a lot of the economics problems that occur with full trading. Where it is more efficient to shop for deals and flip items than actually play the game. With this system, if you buy an item it is because you want to use it. Admittedly this system is fairly close to an SSF environment, but there is 1 key difference. You can unload valuable items you don’t want to use. This is critical to avoiding the #feelsbadman when a really rare drop happens that you don’t personally care about.
- REDUCE A RANDOM AFFIX BY 1 TIER ON TRADING
Any time an item acquires a new player tag it randomly chooses an affix and reduces it by 1 tier. The great thing about this solution is it emphasizes doing things yourself. Sure, you can buy an upgrade through trade but there is an RNG factor surrounding the item you actually receive. If you hit a T7/T6 mod that significantly lowers the value of that item. Also, if you lower a T5 to T4 there is still a chance to salvage the item by upgrading it yourself, which has its own risks.
This system is more closely aligned with Open Trading, and can easily be tweaked to punish trade further if it is deemed an issue. This could easily be altered to be 2 random affixes for instance.
I’m personally more on the SSF side of things so any way that trade gets reduced I think results in better character progression. But I also hate how the debate always gets pushed to the extremes. Anybody out there who agrees that a middle ground might be the best path forward?
No, I agree a middle ground is fine. The problems arise when the factor “economy” becomes too overbearing. Or rather, it simply becomes such a factor that the entire game needs to be balanced around it.
I think they are indeed going for such a middle ground with the proposed Bazaar system. Trade is therefore functionally a possibility, party trade will be a thing anyway. But there won’t be an easily accessible and searchable open economy, which ensures that SSF balancing can be maintained.
The way I imagine it you’ll pop into the Bazaar every play session once, check if any of the vendors you see that day has something of interest to you, and update/maintain your own shop. The details of how it plays out remain to be seen, and i’m sure will be iterated on.
Why? It’s like giving a kind a full bar of chocolate, but only allowing him to take one bite and throw it away after. Like ehhhhh? What’s the point?
There is no such problem. You just made that up, as a problem 
. Let people do what they enjoy.
Again why? What’s the point? It’s like giving a present to someone, but just as he resieves it, bash it with a baseball bat. Enjoy the broken present, lul.
This entire idea should be laughed out of the room. It’s dumb, it’s punishing for no other reason than “I don’t like trading”. It’s like the current gambling system, but way worse, because you are paying for a high instabolity or fractured item, which is guaranteed to get a damaging fracture upon transition. It’s completely pointless.
And what about Uniques, are you gonna fracture uniques as well upon trading?
Then just play SSF and don’t try to influence a part of the game, where you have no investment in.
It’s not about denying people their fun. It’s about a core philosophical question of design and balance. Having or not having an open trade economy in an ARPG based around loot makes a huge difference for these considerations. So no, it’s not a “made-up concern”.
You need to adopt a less confrontational and hostile tone around here. This thread has delivered literally pages and pages of arguments and reasons for why the topic we are discussion poses challenges and problems for the design of the game. It’s fine if you don’t want to go through it all, but your position is similarly simply just “I like trading and want easy access to all items”, but you don’t really acknowledge or aren’t aware of how such a system poses a completely different framework for drop, crafting and general itemization balance.
This is not a “Trade versus SSF” topic. It’s a topic about the pros and cons of Trade, the opportunities and limitations inherent to it, and specifically in relation to LE’s current state, which is not suitable to an open trade economy as you would like it.
I encourage you to actually read through most of this thread, because frankly everything you’re stating has been discussed at length and you’re not adding anything new except for an unnecessarily hostile tone.
It can be a problem, it prices people out of the market. I’d imagine that that would be the answer a flipper gives (not that I’m saying you are).
No offence. This type of argument shows that people don’t know how hard it is to price fix anything in a game with tens of thousands of players. Hell, it’s really hard and it takes an enourmous amount of time and effort to price fix items in a game with a few thousand players (I’ve price fixed a single item slot in Marve Heroes and it took me 6-7h a day scanning the trade chat and updating forum threads and I wasn’t alone, two friends were helping me), but in a larger economy it’s close to impossible without 3rd party software, which I assume and hope it will be take care of, switftly.
Even in PoE with the hundreds of thousands of bots trading, casual players are hardly priced out of highend gear. Item flipping is not an issue in any game.
No, I don’t, I’m not breaching any ToS with how I compose my posts.
I mean, you’re either stuck in your bubble, or not aware. But market mechanics absolutely are punitive towards casual players. You’re being disingenuous for the sake of your position.
Have at it, hoss, but I doubt many will want to continue to engage with you if you insist on this approach.
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I don’t think you have played PoE in the past like 6 leagues, or even longer, for more than a week. Decking out in starting gear is less than you acquier during leveling. Full budget Good build is in between 1-5 ex and highend gear is like 10 ex per item. That is tremendously cheap. If you think that’s pricing out the casual player base, you are simply not playing the game.
I’m tired of your “No True Scotsman” rhetoric and dismissive attitude. For the record, i’ve likely played way more PoE than you ever have, and yes, i’ve played the last 6 leagues, even the current one. But I don’t bring it up because a) it’s not relevant to the point being made and b) this topic isn’t about PoE.
It’s about the effect of the mere existence of an actual market on a loot-driven ARPG. Claiming there is no such effect is absurd.
You can turn this on its head. In an SSF-balanced game like LE, other tools are designed to give easy access. So, for example, respeccing is effortless, and the crafting system is so simple and powerful that you can pretty easily swap into any build you choose to with very little effort.
But you are stuck in the mindset of trade values, and not seeing the forest for the trees, or “getting” the point of the discussion here. In any case, i’m not going to continue this train of thought for now.
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Dude, you are claiming the casual player base in PoE is being priced out, which is not only wrong, but it’s so far detached from reality, it’s asinine. In a game, where it’s so abused by bots for chinese sites, the casual player can still put in 10h a week and be decked out in half a month.
You are trying to make up “cons”, based on fallacies. I don’t know if you are deliberetly gasslightning, or are so clueless, you actually believe your claims.
. The game stucks you into a subclass. #effortless.
I disagree with this statement. As once a casual PoE player(<40 hours a league), full set of high end gears still requires many hours of grinding and be lucky and I have felt priced out multiple times (also depending on how you define high-end, Maven-worthy?)
Furthermore, even Chris Wilson himself has a position that trading in ARPG need friction. How much friction, what type of friction and their pros and cons are what we are discussing in this thread. EHG have a similar mindset. So, your approach of all or nothing does not add much constructive argument that has been discussed before.
There’s a reason why countries tend to consider price-fixing a bad thing & make it illegal. If you don’t, that’s your prerogative.