It seems you somewhat miss the point. Yes, other ARPGs have more open forms of trade - but they are also designed around that fact, with drastically different itemization models and weaker tools. You wouldn’t be able to have the kind of crafting accessibility we have in LE now, for example, with a low barrier-to-entry type of trade (such as P2P barter or an AH).
I didn’t say it modified the drop rate. I said it smoothed it out. It makes it more uniform across all players, instead of the (expected) spikes where some players are lucky and get an item faster and/or more of it, while other players are unlucky and don’t get one.
Also, with trade, you need to look at player retention. New players joining do not have said items, and player leaving do. If older players give away/sell those items to new players (which is often the case for major traders) then the saturation rate gets even higher. In order for saturation to not be reached, items need to permanently leave the trade pool, either through Binding, destruction, or player quitting w/items in tow.
With SSF, such saturation does not and cannot occur, because every player is an “island”, and whatever they have, they have, and new players do not have access to it.
This is EHG’s philosophy, as per their post about not having the “best” items available via Trade and their details on The Bazaar posted thus far.
Why? Please explain. I don’t disagree but I don’t think anyone is suggesting an AH situation nor is anyone suggesting (again) that trade just be dropped in as is without any sort of adjustments.
Failing to see the difference. Would you not agree that even minor adjustments would be modifications to some degree?
I couldn’t agree more as trade is often a motivator for new players and long term players.
Yes! We agree on this completely! This was never in doubt that items would need to have a lifecycle.
We nearly agree here but every player is an island is not due to saturation and stating that it cannot occur is an opinion. If item lifecycle is in place such as binding, that does not affect SSF which means the island remains intact.
I also agree on EHG’s philosophy about not having the best items available via trade but we’re not talking about the best items, we’re talking about any items, all items, etc. If you want the best items locked down simply make them non-tradeable but I don’t know that I agree with that being the best approach.
Again, this post stemmed from the statement that this was a case against a trade economy. There’s already one-a-coming whether you like it or not, deem it as such, or fail to acknowledge what it is. 
You may not be, but plenty of others have in the thread, even quite recently. So i’m not always exclusively commenting for your sake, just for clarification. Also as a disclaimer, this is ofc also just my opinion, i wouldn’t try to argue that i’m objectively 100% correct.
In any case, you need to look at the core gameplay loop, and how the availability of trade affects that. The easier it is to convert anything that drops into value, and the easier it is to bypass raw drops as well as crafting to progress, the shorter the actual gameplay loop becomes, and the harder it is to maintain a healthy balance in loot/crafting/RNG/progression.
In some games, like PoE, it works somewhat due to countless layers of mechanics, currencies, and RNG, on top of a massive item pool and showering you in basically 99% trash and casino tokens. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy it too, but that’s basically what it boils down to. LE works somewhat differently.
In LE, I can essentially say “I want to try this skill now, and build differently”. I gamble some appropriate bases, or set my filter accordingly, slap on my glyphs/runes, and craft the gear i’ve theorized within minutes to a functional level. You’re naturelly enticed to engage with the crafting system and your filter to progress, and rare (as in, Uniques or Exalts) drops entice you to try new things because it is so easy to respec, change things around. There is a very low opportunity cost, and it makes loot feel quite rewarding, intuitive, and motivating far beyond what it would be, if Trade were a major factor.
What EHG is currently postulating in the Bazaar, as they explained it, is a way to have some form of trade (alongside party trade) which does not endanger that balance and functionality. If you allowed for barter and/or an auction house (in this context, they are essentially the same), it would endanger that.
The Bazaar is by definition not an economy. Since you cannot refresh player shops, cannot search them, or access the entire supply of items up for trade at any point, on top of restrictions to what can be traded, it is essentially just checking another ingame vendor, only the chance for “good” items will be higher. Since you cannot plan for any returns from such an exchange, it cannot fulfil the function an economy would have on drop tuning, for instance. Drops/crafting would still be your primary means of progressing, with the Bazaar probably being a fun little sideshow.
This goes for any RNG based loot system and we are in agreement that neither of us want the core gameplay loop shortened. I just don’t agree that because you’ve added a new mechanic such as player trading that it inherently will shorten it. Yes, Player B may have what Player A wants and Player B may have spent less time attaining said item(s) but what about the item(s) in return that Player B wants that Player A had to go after not to mention the time Player A already spent trying to get said item(s), if any? This is a bi-directional effort and trust me, I do understand the impact of twinking and low level character acquisition of high level gear.
Agreed on the crafting piece but I don’t necessarily agree that it’s “motivating far beyond what it would be, if Trade were…” and I purposely left off this last piece because no one said “major” factor but I’ll say ANY factor.
I 'm sure you’ve read it but the dev blog post clearly states it as “THE ECONOMY” and “Player economy”, despite your definition.
i cant understand why all this ppl is speaking about economy and item saturation!!! seems crazy!! if game hasnt got trade there is not gonna be saturation , economy and nothing cuz comunnity will be smaller than actual comunity!! Cuz half of ppl playing right now are just playing cuz we think there will be trade , multiplayer and pvp. and if devs dont add this features game is gonna be a fail even b4 release.
game has a lot of potencial but just cuz we think its gonna be better than other options we have on market.
Now we got d2r , d3 and comming soon d4, there is also poe and what i liked more of LE as many of my friends is:
-game is faster and has an easier knolwledge curve than other rpgs
-more drop than other arpgs
-faster progression and easier
-ladder to compare high end progression
-easy craft allowing to add stat desired
-mana nearly infinite in nearly all builds
and ofx all this ppl expect trade and pvp, if not u just got a single player game.
why adding multiplayer if u cant pvp? why mp if u cant trade? why u want to gear better if is not to compite against other ppl ? no1 cares about having better gear just for having it. No 1 will farm , and gane after 3 monts will be dead
If devs are looking for a game with a small comunity of single players then yes , dont add pvp, dont let trade , but that wont be what most ppl is expecting about an arpg.
If u make a new game with less features then other arpgs ( hack and slash) of market, u are not gonna get more than 5% of those players… u need to improve actual arpgs if u wanna get its players.
and LE seems to have all what actual rpgs got with faster prigression+ item easier craftable+ more drop+ custom skills+ free respects , and thats the reason of beeing so interesting, but of course was cuz we all thought its was gonna have rest of features.
If LE has better things but has not got the most important ( pvp and trade ) its going to be a BIG FAIL cuz all players will remain in d2r or d3 or POE or POE2 (also comming soon)
So much to unpack in this whole post but let’s just focus on a couple of things. You do not have to make a game with more features to attract players. You just need to make a good game. Also, where on earth did you get the 5% value?
The game “needs” neither of those things and I think most folks here would agree that they’re definitely not the most important.
Gauss Curve
i am teacher of economy and maths on barcelona university , i have madden many market studies and nearly all markets rules have a similar behaviour
just time will determine how many users has the game, but i am completly sure that number of users will depen much more from features than from quality
its very easy to understand if u got a base of 100 potential players and 50% wants pvp and 50% wants trade and 50% wants better quality
if u make a game with pvp and trade and quality u have a potential market of 100
if u make a game with just one of those features ure potential is much smaller
if u are looking for a small comunity very specialized its ok , but if u are looking for a big comunity and a game who gets more than 25% of hack and slash players of world u need to add all features that rest of games have and more than them and have better quality than all them!!!
The video games market was worth over $90 billion in 2020 and PVP games value was worth $74,6 billion. No1 can think without pvp will be more players.
And if u got pvp , u need trade cuz 75% of ppl who wants pvp wants to develop char as fast as posible to start with pvp as soon as they can.
You can argue with other aspects of game, but if u look for a big comunity u need maximum features.
I just want to comment that this statement is very wrong. Economy had first emerged from the prehistoric time when man first trade with bartering. Economy doesn’t start when Google created search engine or Amazon created centralized online market. Closest thing IRL to Bazaar is neighbourhood flea market that you stumbled upon.
3 Likes
Bartering requires two or more participants to make an exchange (does not have to be equal value). Without and I quote from Wealth of Nations. “No exchange can, in this case, be made between them, when parties do not agree."
Sure, and I think the current proposed Bazaar bazaar fit that requirement
I was attempting to support your position with a more relevant example. To one person money is everything, to others without the concept of money its worthless. Thus the barter, item for item exchange that places the value determination based on choosing to make that exchange.
An excellent example of this is PoE’s new expedition system that has three variants of the theme. The best one for LE’s case is Tujen, the Haggler, is open to negotiating but has a short temper.
Got it. I was confused by your previous reply. From your quote, problem with LE currently is no one need the money.
Yeah I got plenty, but not enough. I am in the middle of completely redoing my stash setup and its a bleed eye sore… I need a bazaar to get rid of stuffs!
Completely disagree
As of right now I am approaching lvl 100 and have not dropped a “common” tier unique that I’ve been searching for since my earliest lvls
I keep 1 copy of every unique item I find and this unique item can be dropped anywhere
Since LE removed unique gamble the only way to farm it is to try and do unique echos
So I am heading towards lvl 100 and still have not dropped this unique item
But that’s not all, I am actually hunting multiple unique items and none of them have dropped
I only have like 1 character I spent time on and my current playtime is over 60 hours
This forced SSF is horrible in its current state
Also exalted items are rare, double exalted is even more rare
IDK if triple exalted exists but my point is that these items are insanity tier rare
So if you find one that you dont need for your build, its essentially worthless regardless of how rare it is
If trade existed people could offer to trade items and get access to things that they will most likely never drop
Trade makes the game more fun and multiplayer is just a great addition to this game
Compare ARPG’s where trade is non-existent like GD (you can edit your character file)
to games like POE where trade is huge
Trade is an integral part of ARPG’s and giving value to rare items
If you dont give value to rare items and on top of that there’s no smart loot, people will get bored farming for items that never drop
Just because you can enjoy playing in this item starved system doesn’t mean everyone will
And just because you might get what you’re looking for after hundreds of hours of grinding, does not mean you will want to do that with each “season”
LE has already stated they will be doing “leagues” or “seasons” which include economy resets
So if currently you require HUNDREDS of hours to farm specific gear, then that means you’ll need to do that each and every time
From games like Escape From Tarkov where your character gets reset, I can tell you first hand that most people hate re-grinding all their stats and hideout and lvls etc
Standard in this game will be like Standard in POE
None will care about that league and most people will be playing the temporary leagues or seasons
Trade is good for the game
Trade is needed in this game
2 Likes
I agree that it must be able to farm a particular unique item in some way. I can also understand that trade is a means of alleviating the current situation. However, it cannot be ignored that the value of other exalted items plummets due to trade.
I mean, we can nitpick terms now, sure.
I’ll retract the term “economy”, because it is too broad, and instead describe it as not being an economy with any kind of significant impact on drop rates and player behaviour - because it is neither predictable nor abusable in any way.
Non-searchable, non-refreshable random player shops effectively do not constitute a plannable cycle of supply/demand interaction, hence it does not constitute what the vast majority means when they speak of the “economy” in a game with trade. It is a form of trade, but has barely any economic effect in this form - you’re unlikely to suddenly want to optimize your gold farm in order to afford something on a player shop, for instance.
I think it’s all about perspective. Why must the expectation for a season be to obtain “everything” or the best gear? In PoE for instance, this isn’t even realistically possible, even with Trade. And as I described above in an earlier post, while Trade does enable convenient access to certain items, Crafting fulfills more than part of that in LE as the gateway to enabling baseline viability for all manners of builds.
Trade is not a great time saver in this respect, it just changes the way you think about loot and progression, and necessitates a shift in the itemization design.
By all means, do look at PoE - the existence of Trade there by no means implies that changing your build up and simply going for something is easier. It simply means you need to convert everything you obtain into value, and adjust your gameplay strategy if you have certain goals. In LE, the focus is more on “just playing the game”, and working with what you get and the crafting system to progress.
The system is far from “item starved”, because no items are figuring as progression roadblocks until the very, very late end, when all you are after are Exalted items and specific endgame boss drops. And at that point, your build is completely viable and simply hunting for rare power upgrades. This is apples & oranges when comparing to a game like PoE, which is full of skills which are entirely dependent on specific items, and multiple mechanics designed to get an economic race going around them each season.
And which ARPGs are that?