I feel like this entire topic is a waste of time. EHG already has SSF in the game, don’t want/like trade? No one is forcing you to play trade, play SSF. Case closed.
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I get that the thread is huge, but you should read it before posting. Trade affects SSF, so no, EHG is making the right choice to leave trade out of LE. (Again, for the record, I don’t even consider the proposed Bazaar “trade”.)
I read a few of the first posts, but there’s no way I’m going to read 660+ posts. Could you elaborate on how and why you feel SSF is affected by a trade mechanic that the SSF community would never see or use? I may have missed something in the terms of SSF. AFAIK; SSF is solo-self found, meaning the player has no interactions with anyone else, their own created characters as well. I fail to see how a trade mechanic affects SSF.
It doesn’t affect SSF but some believe it “can” depending on the implementation. Trading has worked in other ARPG’s just fine and it can work in LE too.
It does not. There are conspiracy theorists that think that SSF will get altered due to the MP economy. They are two separate systems. Do not feed the trolls.
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You are wrong since you’re implicitly making 2 assumptions. 1) everyone wants the same item and 2) everyone plays the same amount. If both of these things are true there is 0 benefit to having a trade league.
To further explain why I’ll reference a simple online probability calculator you can tinker with if you don’t believe me (Binomial Probability Calculator - Statistics Helper). If you’re curious why I’m going through all this trouble to explain it, it’s because it has been awhile since I took statistics so it is good to have a refresher from time to time:
10 people trading vs solo farming
Let’s say you want whatever unique item that has a drop rate of 5% from a high level boss. You attempt to find it solo by attempting the boss 10 times independently. We use our calculator with n=10 (10 trials), p=.05 (5% probability), and x=1 (1 success). We also include more than 1 success since if you run the boss 10 times and get 2 drops that still counts as a good thing. Result is you have a 40% chance to get the item. If all 10 people do this in isolation an average of 4 people will get the item. An important thing to note is that if anyone gets more than 1, those extra items are wasted without trading.
Now let’s say all 10 people run the boss 10 times and pool their resources. The total amount of item drops for the group averages out to:
10 players * [(1 success in 10 trials) + 2*(2 success in 10 trials) + 3*(3 success in 10 trials)]
10*[(.31512) + 2*(.07463) + 3*(.01047)] = 4.96
We’ll call it 5. So now with trading of items 5 people get the item they want instead of the 4 above. While it is true that if you trade for the item you aren’t getting it for free, at the end of the day now 5 items exist in the player ecosystem opposed to 4.
This effect of pooling resources gets much more significant the more people involved, especially if only a subset of the players even want the item in the first place. The above example uses basic numbers, but the point is that having access to trade means less waste overall. Extrapolate that over time and it is the same as power creep. However, it sounds like EHG is putting in safeguards to prevent this power creep from turning into a runaway train. I’ll be very curious to see what their final Bazaar proposal looks like.
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My example was related to a single item so yes 1. is correct but I am not assuming that everyone plays the same amount, so 2. is incorrect.
As you pointed out, each run is independent which means each attempt yields a 5% chance, not a 40% chance for the 10 times. That’s the fallacy I was referencing. Adding more people to the mix only increases the # of trials executed, not the individual probability nor the success.
I definitely agree that pooling resources can lead to less waste via trade and logic stands to reason if someone is looking for a particular item there’s a good chance that over time, the pool will be large enough to accommodate. However, this does get into supply & demand for the item which I don’t even want to try and get into at this point. As far as item availability in relation to power creep is concerned, league resets are a great way to combat this.
The bottom line is trade can increase the fidelity of the game. It can improve player retention, foster a sense of community, reduce item waste, etc. all dependent upon how it’s implemented. It can also have a negative effect if implemented poorly but one might argue that not having trade in the game could also turn some potential players away.
Time will tell and I can only imagine how much fun EHG is having with tackling this particular mechanic.
LOL
no trade in a mp game? Joking? Well if devs wants to have a small game with very few users that is gonna be the way for sure.
Ofc i wont play and nearly all ppl i know from 30-40 years playing arpgs also wont. If i lnew it there was a chance or not having mp or not having trade i wouldt had bought the beta.
If some ppl is interested in not trade just make chars that cant trade, like hc , and solo char ( the char who cant share stash i supose wont be able to trade)
But 90% of arpg players love trade and have traded sometimes, and if u dont want dont do it, but 4 sure a mp gane without trade does not fit.
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That’s not true. Accessabily =/= power creep. Creating powerful items = power creep (which isn’t necessarely a bad thing).
No, they aren’t joking, these people are just in a buble, thinking effort = thousands of hours of play time.
I’ve been a HUGE fan of how much respect EHG has for the time that is invested in playing LE. Some people see fit to try and make it a point to lessen the respectful nature of EHG by making us spend WAY more time than necessary to farm, craft and play in the end-game. I, personally do not approve of this. Seems selfish, to me for other players to want to restrict our potential to reach certain parts of the game because they think everyone has unlimited time to play LE. I apologize for not having countless hours to spend in-game solo farming, crafting my items and running monos to reach full build potential. I don’t see how nor why people feel the need to push this topic other than selfishness and competitveness.
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Neither of which are against ToS. Just saying because I saw this reply once. Made me laugh, but they were kind of forgettable anyway lol. I do hope they chime in!
I was not trying to insinuate selfishness and competitiveness is in anyway against ToS. Thank you for pointing that out though. However, it does make me feel bad that all you took from my previous post was selfishness and competitiveness. Also, it seems like you’re making an attempt to antagonize another user, which could, in some areas be viewed as harrassment. Which is, by the way in violation of the Code of Conduct.
I feel like a lot of unrelated issues and perspectives are being brought in here, and in addition, some aren’t really grasping the crux of the matter.
LE is designed and balanced around SSF. You cannot simply slap on open Trade on to this version of the game, and expect to have the same experience. Tools such as crafting, and the current itemization model, would feel pretty shitty. Why? Because an open economy would hyper-accelerate the gear progression, bypassing all base level crafting and drop excitement, essentially shifting all focus towards the very best and rarest drops a lot sooner than the system currently does. You would necessarily have to adjust all aspects of itemization for open trade (meaning, no real restrictions on what, how much, and when you can trade) to feel good, and not completely overbearing.
As some keep bringing it up: it’s not as simple as “just making two modes”. PoE started from the trade base - SSF was an afterthought much, much later, which is basically functional for those who enjoy the challenge. But it’s night and day when you compare to LE now. PoE is balanced around Trade, you have a fraction of the possibilities for builds in SSF.
LE on the other hand is balanced around SSF, you essentially are not gated out of any functional build type by waiting for drops - there are drops you can find which unlock different ways of scaling, but other than that gear is purely power progression. If you took this into a separate mode and just slapped open Trade on it, it would feel terrible without significant changes and balancing. Hence it’s a lot more work than slapping on a separate SSF mode with no changes to a game tuned around Trade.
There also seems to be a perception among some that Trade = convenience, faster progress. This is…somewhat of a misconception. What easy trade at base level does in PoE (to make any build viable at a base level), is what crafting does in LE. The time investment is very comparable here. When it comes to endgame progression, the time investment for achieving the very best you can is again, very comparable. Unless you want to seriously argue that people are running around in double-influenced, near Mirror value endgame crafted gear after 20 hours in a league 
The argument isn’t about liking or not liking Trade, btw. If you read my opening post and most of my comments, that isn’t my stance at all. I rather like Trade, and have enjoyed it in the past. The question is what is best for the gameplay experience in LE, based on its current design, and how to avoid the pitfalls which various forms of Trade have posed in other games.
Its not all I took, Im just high as hell and thought that was humorous. And the rest I don’t really mind. I’m not harrassing, so meh. Everyone takes all kinds of things however way they want on this forum, so I just don’t care anymore about being polite since it’s not really punished. This could all change when I wake up more sober. Who knows or cares!
But, you make a decent point. I apologize for not really responding to the rest of your post. I do somewhat fit in with you in that I work, have a family, etc. I’m hoping that whether there is or isn’t trade, that the game itself still feels as good as it has been. But the debate of whether it should or shouldn’t be isn’t one I feel worth having. EHG has their data and plans. Hoping (and believing!) that the game will be one of the best made. 
And while each attempt/run is independent & has the same probability as every other, more runs (or more people making a run) gives rise to a higher probability of 1 success within that larger sample.
What’s the probability of getting (at least) 1 head in 1 coin flip? 2 coin flips? 10 coin flips? The more attempts you do, the greater the likelihood that you’ll succeed within that larger number of attempts.
And that’s where you’re not understanding it. I don’t think anyone’s saying that.
Certainly, but I don’t think it’s fair to assume that some aren’t grasping the crux of the matter.
You’re assuming that trade would be haphazardly slapped on and that would somehow lead to a hyper-accelerated gear progression and ultimately bypass base level crafting & drop excitement. I agree that you would have to adjust for certain aspects of itemization to make it feel good and not overbearing but swinging the design pendulum in extreme positions to substantiate an opinion isn’t really proper design nor fair. Keep in mind that not having trade, watching items rot, spending thousands of hours attempting to farm an item with failure, these all can feel bad too.
Again, no one is suggesting any “slap on” modes nor are they suggesting it be done without care. Not sure where the impression was given but it’s incorrect. You are correct on how PoE and LE are balanced differently with the differing gear acquisition mechanics but again, be cautious with the assumptions. I would also tend to agree that gear is power progression but I don’t agree with “purely”. There are somethings that are absolute but game design is not one of them, nor is player expectation. Some may like the gear for the look.
Couldn’t agree more that trade != convenience. I also tend to agree that the time investment is very comparable and would love to see some more QoL adjustments to the crafting system but that’s for another post.
I want to assume that those posting here have a vested interest in the game and want it to succeed which is why passion can sometimes seem confrontational without context and opinions can come off as pushed bias.
This is incorrect as covered earlier. Increasing the frequency does not increase the odds.
Unfortunately that’s exactly what was being said but I can understand not wanting to sift through 600+ pages!
So if I buy 2 lottery tickets you’re saying my chance of winning is the same as if I buy 1 (assuming the numbers are different on both) & that this is wrong?
I need one ‘tails’ on a coin flip.
1 flip might get me that.
5 flips might get me that.
25,000 flips might get me that.
The above is the exact same chance everytime I flip: 50%
Now if the question is phrased: I need one ‘tails’ among any number of rolls.
Then I now have much better chance of getting that 1 tails landing if I do the 25,000 flips than the 1 flip. Still %50 per flip, but so many chances to flip!
I hope this helps separate the two difference, as it’s getting pointed out constantly and I’m not sure it needs to be.
This might help. Keep in mind what can change this or invalidate this is if the item pool changes after each failed run, something akin to a pity timer.