Hi all,
playing an Spriggian Druid using the healing totems - in tooltip of healing totem node “spiked totems” it says that “thorn totems tree” is beeing used.
But when I play in Spriggian form and using the healing (thorn totems) the damage is way lower than in “human form” and using the thorn totems. Its a big difference… am I doing something wrong here or is it maybe buggy?! Thx for some explanations or help.
It’s applying the Thorn Totems tree not any of the base stats, might not be intended as it’s probably missing the base 9 damage that Thorn Totems get.
Might be unrelated but, before the patch you couldn’t increase healing totem max count with the thorns tree, now you can, giving you a maximum of 9 healing totems vs the 6 thorns totem. It could be both an intentional balance change or an untended bug with changing how the tree is implemented.
thx for the info. Right now it a bit dissapointing because damage wise the totems are usless in comparisson… will see. Thx anyways
Honestly I think I’m playing exactly the build you’re trying to make. Don’t give up it’s still possible. Some tips about what I’m using: I’m druid cause I want that minion spell damage +40,
I’m using a spriggan with +15 more and 8% base crit to buff the totems (Along with 200% crit chance on thorns totem tree). Which just those two alone give 39% crit chance for totems. I also have +x% crit chance for totems idols with increased minions crit chance on them. So they crit all the time. That and the double hit chance makes them do incredibly well when it pops together.
One additional piece of the puzzle is having entangling roots that gives a bunch of buffs to minions and totems. But to apply it in spriggan form I recommend 1 point into valetide (spriggan form tree) and 3 points into cycle of life (spriggan form tree). What happens is when you have 9 totems and place 9 new ones the old ones give you immidate stacks of 4 vale spirits so your next spirit thorns gives guarrenteed entangling roots. Meaning just place 9 totems aim towards them and buff them with entangling roots. rince and repeat next pack.
It’s a blast to play and honestly I didn’t even notice that difference for thorns/healing totems.
If you’re doing Thorn Totems, I assume you’ve taken the Nightshade Briar node for more Thorn totem damage per poison stack?
No actually I haven’t done that. I have 4 extra totems and 3 points for the mana return to sustain them. 5 points are needed for 4 points into 200% crit chance. And 4 points are needed for 51% double dmg chance. That leaves only 4 natural points left so I couldn’t reach it even if I wanted to. I spread the additional points between “On Astral Winds” and “Ancient Power” for more dmg per hit.
many thx! I´m only level 50 right now so still a long way to go - was just so disappointed because was working so hard towards the “thorn upgrade” and it had so little effect - havent boost my minoin damage yet and missing a lot of appropiate gear! - but still - damage from "normal thorn totems is way better than when in spriggian form.
Will have a closer look an the entagling roots setup - have you some link to your build to ahve a closer look?!
Np. I tried to import my character but I couldn’t find the necessary folder. I’ll try and make a build as close as I can to it.
I’m actually level 79 and missing better gear as well. But this is the plan more or less. I might need more survivability later on. I dunno. First time sharing a build I did. Hope this helps. Some things are redundant like I didn’t know where to put that extra entangling roots point from the boot. I just use it for the free vines. I also cast some vines particularly on bosses.
Yeah, you could try this (maybe not Rotten Core):
If you also equipped a Serpent’s Milk amulet, they’d have a lot more poison chance so more stacks → more damage.
Or if you were willing to try a Horned Staff (+1 minion skills):
Now I want to do something like this… 
I’m never going to get a Squirrel helm.
I assume this is for directly using thorns totems? Since Grove Mind doesn’t work with healing totems in spriggan form. Looks nice thx for the share. I’m not sure my current build can sustain the Nightshade Briar I have very little poison chance. But might try it on a different toon.
Having done some quickmaffs (which may be wrong, it has happened before),
Therefore 1 totem would be able to apply 4 x 3.9 x 2.4 stacks within the 3.9s poison duration, therefore 5 totems would be able to apply 187 stacks which with the 4% more hit damage per stack → 748% more Thorn Toten hit damage.
It doesn’t matter, Grove Mind works when you’re in Spriggan form if you take the Spiked Totems node (my current Spriggan form build does this for some more resists & spell damage).
That’s what Serpent’s Milk is for, see above.
I thought each enemy could only be hit by one thorn at most from a single totem. Even then though 187% more damage…
The serpent’s milk could be interesting didn’t think of that.
The way I have it set up is I have roughly 72% crit chance on them and 51% chance to double damage so 36% chance to deal 400% more damage. Lets say that is 140% more average dmg. But I also have 54% and another 54% multiplicative damage that you don’t have. so that would make 332% more average dmg (36% chance to deal 900% more dmg.) But assuming you also have the same crit setup without the 200% more crit chance multiplier node on the tree then totem crit chance would be only 25% and with no double dmg. That would mean 25% chance to deal 200% more dmg (50% more dmg multiplier on average.) So if 4 thorns do happen my crit setup with your tree is actually not 748% but 1.122% dmg. If only 1 thorn applies though it’s 280% more dmg on average.
So my setup has 332% more dmg multiplier always (I don’t have any minion crit multiplier I’m sure that will skyrocket this number) but if 4 thorns do stack your build does 1.122% which is huge. Unfortunally if it doesn’t stack it does 280% more dmg on average which is lower than what I have. Of course your setup does scale more with minion poison chance as well so I dunno what the best outcome is for optimized gear.
Moral of the story they are both different builds that can be better than one another. (if only 1 totem can only hit with 1 thorn.) Though even if 4 thorns could be hit by the same target they all go off on opposite sides even a boss would rarely be hit my more than 2 thorns.
Edit: Damn I forgot to add in your 18% more multiplier (and another 18% potential one) With one your 280% becomes 330% which is exactly the same as what I have. With the other 18% yours go up to 389% surpassing mine. But like I said I don’t have optimized gear for myself and we’Re calculating with serpent’s milk for you but nothing for me to replace that. I think if I can get a helmet with minion crit multiplier and minion crit chance I could get my numbers higher than yours even if you had the same helmet as well. Though either way it’s very close.
Edit 2: Oh wait you have 22/23 points I have 21 points. If I assume I have 22 points my number goes to 371% (54%–>72%) and with 23 points 414% vs your 389% with 23 points. Of course my mind is about to explode with math so I could be wrong with the numbers. I’m trying to give both builds as close to accurate representation as possible. There is a third option with is neither of our builds but an amalgam. When I said I have 4 natural points left I couldn’t pursue Nightshade Briar but with 7 points I can. so with 23 total points and with serpent’s milk. omg math is killing me… one second
Edit 3: Omg I didn’t even consider you can have 5 totems max but I can have 9 totems.
Edit 4: And another thing. The poison needs to stack. didn’t even consider that. So your dmg will ramp up to a maximum. I averaged out my crit chances do I need to average out your upscaling dmg as well? oh boy, the math is hurting my brain.
Edit 5: Lethal Thicket also gives 20% more dmg multiplier my bad. Every number I have on my build have to be multiplied by 1.2 now. So my initial 332 % becomes 398% and if we go with the 23 point numbers 497%. So best case is 1.562 (23 points) vs 497 and worst case is (if thorns don’t do 4 hits per second) 389 vs 497. Funny coincidence best case is your build dies π (3.14) more dmg than mine, worst case is mine does 27% more dmg than yours. This is excluding any totem count math. So per totem based. If we disregard the 5 extra thorns totems for the sake of crit math already done, than that is 7.810% more dmg for your best case, 1.945 for your worst case(5 totems), and 4.473 for my build (9 totems). If we assume we have magical idols that fit that also give us both 5 more thorn totems (I don’t wanna recalculate everything without the crit idols I have): then your best case becomes 15.620, worst case becomes 3.890 (10 totems) and mine becomes 6.958 % more dmg (14 totems). I have no idea why I felt the need to do all that math. But I think it all comes down to if totems do get that 4 times bonus or not.
Yes, each mob can only be hit by 1 thorn per totem per cast, but lastepochtools.com has a delay of 0.25s between casts, hence I’ve assume that the totems each fire 4 volleys per second meaning 4 hits per second per totem.
It does stack. Without having done any maths, I’d probably go for general minion damage modifiers rather than minion poison chance, assuming the incremental benefit of an additional poison chance modifier is lower than the incremental benefit of an additional % minion spell damage modifier.
I didn’t understand this are you saying healing totem with thorns tree hits 4 times a second? cause they seem to be firings once per second in the animation. I’m confused. Edit: Cause if they do then shouldn’t I also multiply everything by 4.
Well, if you can only see 1 cast per second then that’ll be the firing rate, it’s entirely possible that the data in lastepochtools.com is not quite what I think/thought it was.
They may have changed it last patch. It is entirely possible the old healing totem to thorns totem hit 4 times a second but the new one just becomes entirely like thorns totem and hits once per second.
You can have a lot of totems, 5 from a “Thorn totem on hit” proc plus another 5 from Healing Totems.
Yes, poison stacks (no cap) so the more stacks of poison a target has the more more damage you get from Nightshade Briar (which takes the total stacks not how many stacks a particular totem applied).
Ohhhh I didn’t know that combination, that’s actually brilliant. But that also means I can make 9+5 more totems. Though this completely throws my calculations out the window since I always included the crit change idols I have for both of us. I would need Thorn totem on hit idols instead.
No I meant I avaraged out my crit and double dmg numbers into a single 140% dmg multiplier per hit. So I calculated like every single thorn does the same dmg. For your calculations we didn’t consider the ramp up time when you first attack someone without any stacks. So the first thorns of all your totems will hit like a wet noodle and the final hits will do their full dmg. For the build I have the first hit has a 36% chance to deal 900% more dmg (if it both crits and doubles) so things might die on the first hit where yours will have to stack up on even the smallest minions (well maybe not the smallest since they might die anyway to wet noodles).