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So, what exactly are Vines?

Hello, time travellers!

I recently discovered from Quiet himself that „vines” (the special ability within the Spriggan Form skill) does not scale with minion damage, because they do not share the „pet” tag. Consequently, vines scale with spell damage (when converted to Razor Vines). So, that’s cool, but… what exactly are vines?

If they are not pets and scale from the player’s own spell damage, then vines should behave sort of like Wandering Spirits (the comparison is not great, but it’s the best I could think of). Except, vines dont apply player’s ailments (at least, from my limited testing) and don’t leech health to the player (not even after taking the Blood Claws passive).

Are they bugged in this patch? Or do they work as intended? And if so, what are they? Thanks!

I have been using a spriggan form build since after the 8.2 patch. I can’t say if everything is working as intended. The skill says that vines are a melee minion that apply poison on hit.

I also put a point into razor vines. Instead of going with spell damage, I chose to stack attunement. I’m up to 68 attunment and these vines are melting everything. I’m on a 180 echo streak in a timeline with 185 corruption and these vines are crushing everything. I also use idols that apply minion bleed and poison. Seems to be working well with that combo.

Razor Vines has the spell tag, was probably what OP was thinking of.

Vines are considered Minions (also the razor vines)

Normal vines : scales off minion melee damage, minion poison damage, minion melee attack speed, minion melee attack damage, attunement (and minion ailments)

Razor vines : are no longer melee, but ranged. Scales off minion damage, minion spell damage , minion physical damage, minion poison damage(added in 0.8.2), attunement (and minion ailments)

I can see why that would be a drop in damage. Razor Vines only add a thorn projectile that pierces and scales off of physical, spell and attunement. If OP stacked spell damage trying to get the projectiles more damage than that is missing out on the chunk of damage the vines themselves would do.

Do they do melee damage as well as a spell? So if a mob was in melee range it’d get hit twice?

Yes, they are nutty. The vines will launch the projectiles from razor vines and then start slamming anything within range with the poison and bleed damage, and a slow that I added.

I agree they are good, but Razor vines wont use the melee part anymore. You can test it by putting on minion melee attack speed idols and see it has no effect on the razor vines.

I didn’t get so see how it worked before it is now. I could actually drop razor vines and wouldn’t even notice the difference. I only took it because I saw that it scaled off of attunement and I had stacked a lot of it.

Yea if you use only attunement and ailments then you wont notice the damage difference, but if for example you wanna do a heavy bleed build then razor vines are preferred as both the vines damage and the bleed ailment will benefit from minion physical damage.

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It’s odd that the tooltip for the vines skill on your skill bar (in Spriggan form) shows that they get 4% chance to poison per attunement but the tooltips on the Vine nodes don’t.

Imgur

Imgur

I’ll post it as a bug report.

Nice catch

Great, could you also include that the tooltip on razor vines should state that they lose the melee option, but still retains the poison ailment.

EDIT : and also the tooltip on razor vines goes up when equipping player physical/spell damage, which isnt the case in reality.

Ok, so I had another chat with Quiet and he explained and cleared up the confusion.

So, regular vines scale off from minion damage (and other tags mentioned in the description), but razor vines scale off from your own spell damage, because although they are minions, the physical spell they shoot it’s actually your spell, so it scales off your own stats.

The reason razor vines dont leech is because the minion uses your spell and your leech stats, but it converts to them, not to you. And regarding the ailments, the problem is complicated: currently the slow node (from the top of the spriggan form tree) doesnt apply to the spell shot by razor vines, but other ailments do apply like the inherent poison, bleed and (probably, but not sure) chill. Needs more testing.

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That is the weirdest most roundabout way of doing minion spell damage.

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Although i would hate to disagree with Quiet, i will have to in this case.
It might be that Razor vines also scales off your spell dmg (i know the tooltip on razor go up when equipping player spell damage), but you will definately see the best results/most damage when equipping minion spell/physical damage.

Here´s an example :
You can see Boardmans vines critting for like 600-800 in this video : Unlimited mana 100+ Vines Spriggan shaman 0.8.1I Last epoch - YouTube
You can see my vines critting for like 1300-1600 in this video : Last Epoch Shaman Spriggan Build 0.8.1g - YouTube

Boardman focuses on player spell damage, and mine focuses on minion spell damage, and mine does twice the damage (i know he didnt put full points in spriggan forms vines damage, and didnt take the added minion/player spell damage node in shaman passive) but still if the razor vines only benefitted from player spell damage, hes vines should do considerable more damage than mine.
I mentioned this to @boardman21 , and he tested it and agreed that minion damage gives alot better results.

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Thanks for the info, much appreciated!
PS: I know your vids and I’ve been following your channel for quite a while – I’m the first to like and comment on them :slight_smile: (Daniel S)

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Does player spell damage give any benefit at all in that case? I’d have thought that any % increased would give the same benefit as any other % increased regardless of whether it’s player or minion (in this specific example).

Np, and hello Daniel, always appreciate your comments :wink:

I really cant say for sure if it adds anything, but if i get the time ill try test it tonight.

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I did a bit of testing and it seems player spell damage has no effect at all.

I took and old level 99 char removed any passives that did damage (except some attunement), removed gear except the spriggan belt and some run boots, and tested it in 3 different scenarios :

  1. level 80 mono with only boots and belt : crits were around 130-180
  2. level 80 mono with added 331 player spell damage gear : crit were around 130-180
  3. level 80 mono with added 328 minion spell damage gear : crits were around 400-800

Made a vid of it : https://youtu.be/VO0UlrB-QTo

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