Shield Throw

I was so hyped for the changes this season but yikes, feeling pretty sad even this far in. It was my starter and I followed people who also used it. It seems pretty pidgeon holed to have to use forge guard for single target with ring of shields even though I’ve repeatedly seen that it’s bugged. I’ve tried VK, Pally and FG using really good T7 affixed gear, the new reflect idol etc and honestly compared to my Erasing Strike or my Phys Jav Pally it’s like playing an entirely different game. It’s “ok” to farm but boss killing is tediously slow.

I would love if you guys could bring it up a lot more on par with lets say;
VK - erasing strike, rive and warpath
Pally - judgement, Jav
FG - not sure, never played it other than feeling forced into it for ST.

The skill is amazing and fun and it’s my decade + fav in “the other arpg” and my strongest char. I and I’m sure 1000s of others would love to see more work put in, more option to play this across the classes, I mean theres an idol that turns all dmg into void that no one uses and tons of fire which is great for pally but again singlet target, nope!

I think it needs a lot more phys damage kinda like hammers but it needs higher scaling end game for the ability to actually kill bosses. One YT guy wouldnt even put his abberoth kill up as the video was too long/big to upload as it took -that long-

Please guys, begging you to bring it up some more, the changes to it this season are a great start feel free to DM me I have some good ideas haha and don’t worry it’s not adding a falcon as a minion, lmao :stuck_out_tongue:

Thank you, loving this season :slight_smile:

So what exactly pigeon-holes you into playing Forge Guard and using Ring of Shields?

Good thing there are others who are not afraid and it seems they can kill Abby in ~1:20 without capped crit chance and optimized gear, so all is well.

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Because Shield Throw’s single target has always been a bit lacking & one way to improve that is Ring of Shields.

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Haha as you can see in the video you posted (thanks heaps by the way) he’s FG/Ring of shields as the shields richochet off the ring making it a frog in the blender they refer to - which means if you dont use this you’ll get guys like the one I found who say the videos too long to upload haha!

I’m doing normal abby on my Pally Jav in about 18-23 seconds without moving an inch using Volca’s guide - start fight, stand still he moves to mid and stays there while I tank his auras, stun etc

The play style of most classes I’ve played VS shield throw just feels 100 times different it’s just not as smooth and 1 min 30 is quick but it’s not 4 seconds of a storm totem shaman or a blink of the eye for a falconer doing uber abberoth or 40 seconds for Erasing Strike doing uber, I am merely asking them to bring it up a bit and make the OTHER classes playable for single target.

If you look in ST theres a bunch of fire related nodes which is why he’s using firestarter but you’ve got a paladin who specialises in fire related skills and if you build him you might end killing abby but it’ll be 5-10 times slower than ring of shields which sucks.

Bringing up ST and making it viable for other classes won’t affect anyone else what so ever with their sub 1 min uber kills or there 15 second normal Abbys so I really don’t think anyone should be upset with me asking since thats what EHG is all about - bringing classes up to match :slight_smile:

PS - thank you for that link again, I watched the original where he got the idea from and loaf mentioned bugs and issues and never finished it xo

God forbid FG is better than other two masterys in one thing. Why not just play FG id shield throw is what you want.

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I have asked to make 2 other classes end game viable with a skill I love so I don’t have to pick one class because its not evenly balanced. I don’t understand why you’re so angry at me asking for something that wouldn’t affect anyone’s gameplay in the slightest other than making shield throw more enjoyable to people who play it.

It’s also a feedback and suggestion section - I’m giving my feedback and making a suggestion.

So you need FG and Ring of Shields to ricochet Shield Throw.

But you can do that with Manifest Armor too, right?

Manifest Armor is available to all classes, so you are not pigeon-holed into Forge Guard or Ring of Shields.

No :smiley:

Firestarter Torch is used because of

(26 to 42)% More Fire Damage to enemies afflicted by Spreading Flames

Spreading Flames is an Ailment, and the Firestarter Torch itself gives a chance to apply this Ailment on Hit. It’s like having an extra node on your skilltree that gives 42% more damage.
It works on Physical Shield Throw and Void Shield Throw too, not just on Fire. edit: yeah, brainfart :smiley: of course it only boosts Fire damage.

If anything, it’ll be faster thanks to Paladin’s innate more dmg multiplier, Holy Aura bonuses and Fire damage synergies (like built-in fire res shred and fire pen sources).

2 Likes

More fire damage, not more physical or void damage.

If you’ve got some flat added fire damage, yes. It’ll just be more effective for fire Shield Throw.

Yes, but that’s a Manifest Armour attack & scales with minion stats not the player’s stats. They’ll be very different builds, the one using MA would be a minion build, not a Shield Throw build, though it is using Shield Throw to proc it’s damage.

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Yes, you’re right. Thanks for the correction.

We’re not talking about MA spin attack.

Shield Throw spam builds don’t have the Throwing Arm node, so it cannot Ricochet between you and the boss. So the build uses a minion to have the Shield Throw bounce back and forth between your minion and the boss.

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Just for clarification lads - i have played Pally, VK and FG shield throws, I have a 3LP torch atm on my FG shield throw along with more skill points as I have razorfall max rolls boots with slams. I am very geared more so than lad in video, with buffs (using his guide) my dps goes up to 1.1 mill at like sub 90 but the dmg meter is counting ricochets, shields and all sorts so its a completely different dmg than normal - singlet target with ring is better, I am max crit using multiplier gloves and it’s still shit.

Pally single target with all the fire damage is terrible you need the richochets to bounce off things to amp your dmg this is why it’s NOT viable, VK well yuck.

also 2 massive points of annoyance - 1: when the shield is out you lose 20% resistances NO other “throwing or ranged” class has a debuff this terrible in exchange for damage ANDDDD number 2 the most important thing - this is a THROW, this is RANGED and yet with ring of shields you need to literally be on top of someone closer than MELEE - and i say closer when you can sit 3 meters back with a clothos sword and rive a boss while your echo’s pop off. Having to be close to Nems/Exiles/Champions in a big thick group of mobs, while getting slowed/hit etc is really crazy and then you add minus resists because you’re attacking then SOMETIMES your shield bounces back from a ring rather than going thru to hit the mob you’re firing at. WAAHHHHH lol

Nothing you can say will make me change my feelings that build needs more changing, guys who did theory vids like Pinchingloaf etc got into their builds then stopped for various/similar reasons. It’s just not a good skill right now and I hope they can make it better going forward.

Also ring of shields is a circle around you and the shields ping a LOT - Manifest armor is a pet transformer who in order to generate the same damage as ring of shields would need to run in a circle at light speed around any boss/mobs lol it is not the same, there is still pidgeon holing happening :stuck_out_tongue:

PS love you guys <3

PPS i also tried a variance with 2H volcanus 3LP with 420% more fire dmg, 200% damage over time and some extra ignite - adds 100k or so dmg but still sucks lol

In my eyes, using a 2-handed weapon is not an option on a Paladin, simply because Sigeon’s Reprisal is a must-have for any Shield Throw build hoping to do damage.

As expected, MA is much better than Ring of Shields, because Ring of Shields will eat your ricochets.

Ring of Shields = 1 hit of Shield Throw

Manifest Armor = 2 hits of Shield Throw

2 Likes

One more post, let’s talk DPS tech.

Siege Breaker adds 6 second cooldown, but it has +100% more damage. More importantly you don’t get halved ricochet amount and bouncing works on you, so you don’t need a minion. At most you can grab 10 Ricochets total, so in an ideal scenario you vs. boss alone, you get:
Hit → 1. you → 2. boss → 3. you → 4. boss → 5. you → 6. boss → 7. you → 8. boss → 9. you → 10. boss → return.
In other words, you get 6 hits from one Shield Throw.
You have 6 seconds cooldown, let’s say you stack cooldown everywhere and get 100%, so now you’re at 3 seconds cooldown, that would be equivalent to 2 hits per second with 100% more damage.

The spam ST variant would bounce off of Manifest Armor since it cannot have Throwing Arm. That’s also -4 bounces. Additionally its ricochets are halved, so 6 / 2 = 3. That means in the abovementioned ideal scenario you only get:
Hit → 1. minion → 2. boss → 3. minion → return.
This is offset by the fact that you can spam, so throwing speed is a must-have. Let’s say you manage to get 4 attacks per second, giving you 8 hits per second.

So with enough attack speed, Spam beats CD version of ST, despite the damage difference.

Sigeon’s relatiate with ST proc

Sigeon’s can proc up to 2 times per second, but you cannot always/reliably proc it on bosses. If you could, it would change the numbers:
CD: 2 hits per second from use + 12 hits from (2 procs per second * 6 hits per attack) = 14 hits per second at 100% more dmg
Spam: 2 hits * 6 attacks (4 uses and two procs per second) = 12 hits per second

So if you can reliably proc Sigeons, the cooldown variant gets better.

Shield Bash combo

There’s also Shield Bash, adding +5 ricochets for next ST. With this effect active, it’s (6+5)/2=5.5 rounded up to 6 ricochects for Spam variant:
Hit → 1. minion → 2. boss → 3. minion → 4. boss → 5. minion → 6. boss → return.
So SB combo upgrades our damage to 4 hits per ST.

Similarly it’s 10+5 = 15 ricochets for the CD variant.
Hit → 1. you → 2. boss → 3. you → 4. boss → 5. you → 6. boss → 7. you → 8. boss → 9. you → 10. boss → 11. you → 12. boss → 13. you → 14. boss → 15. you → return.
So SB combo with the CD variant gives us 8 hits per ST.

However SB doesn’t scale with attack speed, so it has a maximum speed of 2.2 attacks per second, so while the CD variant is unaffected by this, weaving it into a SB - ST - SB - ST combo on the spam version would mean lowering our overall speed. A simplified calculation for the combo can be done like this:
ST: 4 attacks per second, ST takes 1/4 = 0.25 seconds
SB: 2.2 attacks per second, SB takes 1/2.2 = 0,454 seconds
So one combo would theoretically take 0,704 seconds, or have the speed of 1,42 combos per second.
Spam: 1.42 * 4 hits per ST = 5.68 hits per second with SB combo
Previously we had 8 hits per second, so as you can see Shield Bash isn’t good for Spam version, but it is very good for the Cooldown version.

So for a spammy ST build I would go for Sigeon’s with maximum attack speed and flat reflect bonuses where available.

With the Ring of Shields deficiency shown in the GIFS one post above, there is little to no reason to use Ring of Shields on the spammy build. All masteries can get their bouncing going with Manifest Armor.

That means VK isn’t yuck.
ST converted to void can use the % more void dmg bonuses from Singular Purpose node and from Devouring Orb, there’s extra 30% throwing speed + echo chance in Void Knight, also some flat throwing void damage, void pen and void leech, so VK easily beats Forge Guard in damage.

And Paladin is the king of Physical and Fire Shield Throw.
Holy Aura with its permanent 18% throwing speed, 48% throwing damage, 50% physical or fire damage, and all of that DOUBLES on HA activation. There’s an offset to the resistance loss in Sanctuary Guardian, there’s free Frailty and Armor Shred in Force of Devotion.

For some reason Increased Shield Throw Critical Strike Chance exists, so capping crit on any mastery isn’t a problem.

Thoughts?

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Ring of Shields is better for Lava Burst procs. Additionally, if your shields are orbiting through the target then if the Shield passes through the target to get to one of the shields the target takes an additional hit.

You need to have the shields surrounding the target for the shield to proc bounce off your shields hence “frog in a blender” not “frog watching you make a smoothie” hahah move on top of the dummy and do it again you’ll see if you have 2 + 2 ricos from the tree it hits a lot

With sigeon its not just the 3 points its the reflect as you mentioned, I have about 3700 reflect giving me 370 flat damage - T7 reflect on armor, T7 on shield and then a bunch of idols with variable numbers lol

Also you mention 6 hits with that siege breaker, I was considering the 6 seconds with 30% on boots and other items but you do realise you dont get a richochet from yourself? it hits the boss it returns to you and thats the attack so its you → boss, 6 seconds, you → boss, 6 seconds. I mean if you’re talking within the ring then maybe but you tell me how smooth thats going to feel vs abberoth. You rock up, hit rings, get literally ON TOP of him as he needs to be inside the ring, you throw your shield, it hits him 5-6 times within 1 second then you’re waiting 4 more seconds for another chance.

I fricking LOVEEEEEEEE pally so my thoughts are this - YES YES YES but I’ve tried it and honestly it doesnt work, I’ve capped crit on FG and Pally I have that stat on helm, and a levelling kestrel for giggles and I have a spare lp3 peak with 280 + 80 from that skill and but yeah I think by end of campaign I was doing “400k” damage thats how it worked out with throws, bounces, fire dmg etc BUT thats if you have a pack, soon as you get a champion on his own and you’re a pally you throw the shield and it hits once, that 400k becomes like what, a 5th of that? This is on echos, I don’t die because you’re a pally and its just echoes but man it takes you so long vs other classes.

So the issue still remains until a GOOD player (as mentioned 1: Im newish, 2 I’m pretty fricking average really) comes along, makes a sick as pally build I can copy then the fact is the skill remains just a bit off because ring of shields makes it so you can do abby (all be it a minute slower than my jav and vk) you’re kinda stuck with FG but the issue with ring is really that they’ve taken a ranged throwing skill and turned it into the most close range melee skill in the game as you have to stick your char on top of the baddy due to the size of the rings AND then my other gripe is while your shield is out you lose 20% of resistances which your ring doesnt negate since it’s adding healing/armor and not resists

Ive never seen a proper VK throwing video, I don’t play that class much. I tried it but didn’t go very far maybe I could check again but it didnt seem viable as ST seems to be one of the very few sent trees that doesnt branch off into a void damage scaling area like all the others.

I absolutely fkn love the fact you’re helping me so much though if you lads were in sydney I’d def shout you food or drinks haha

I’ll probably also re-try a pally at some point but right now I’ve given in… I’ve become a sheep and just hit end game with a UB falc

I’m not sure, but I’m pretty sure it doesnt right now but if shield penetrated enemies and bounced off terrain like in poe that would definitely do a TON for it, you could essentially kite a boss to an area of the map if skilled enough, I mean its still terrible but it would amp the single target a lot with someone like abby

just nem’d a reprisal shield and got 3 then 4lp, guess it’s a sign to reroll one last time

Ok so I’m testing our reduced cool down @Psojed @Llama8 and default for siege breaker is 6 second cool down, right? so I have 31% on my belt and 19% on boots (I have a 30 for boots later) thats 50% - so 50% of 6 seconds should be 3 but my cool down is 4 seconds. Theres none of this multiplicative shit or multiplications its a straight up percent of the base - why the HECK is it 4 and not 3 when i’ve increased 50% of the base 100%? Reckon one of the devs might know lol @EHG_Mike or some one able to give me an insight into this? If this is how it is my goal of 80% reduction will still be unplayabout and the hilarious part about having frenzy next to this skill is increase in attack speed which is still on cool down thanks to broken maths LMAO

Cooldown Recovery Speed formula is CD / (1 + CDR%), so in your case it’s 6 / (1 + 0.5).

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How in the f’s name is there a recovery formula based on the simple text on the screen that we’re able to read - thats basically saying "hi we’re secretly fucking all of your ideas with hidden formulas and then not explaining it with the text making the last 4-5 hours of your life spent farming/slamming and levelling, pointless’

@Psojed thank you for explaining that. I won’t be back to this thread, they obviously just don’t give a real fuck about ST and they’d rather keep most people on falc, rune, ES etc.

Huge yawn, huge cry. Mic drop, I am out.