Shadow daggers nerf

This is just my opinion, keep it civil.

At first seems not much, but is 33% less base damage and 25% less added damage, that’s about 30% less damage on average, that’s quite a nerf.

I feel the problem with shadow daggers still remain: ease of application without risk with umbral blades, and their core feature: always crits.

At this point, just as well remove SD from the game, please just remove it, not make it a bait like critical vulnerability.

Anyways a big number popping out makes the false assumption the buff is just too good, but if we divide the damage by the 4 applications needed… suddenly is a regular hit, if not worse. However always crits… so you remove crit from your build allowing much more gearing flexibility.

Is not an easy problem to solve. I will not offer solutions, because I really don’t see the problem with the skill, I see the problem in the rogue context, if that makes sense.

I think this is acase of a lot of people hate the change, a lot of people don’t care at all and a lot of people think it’s about time it was nerfed. The skill is still on the stronger side of things in theory.

First of all it’s a flat 24,5% nerf nothing more and nothing less.
Adding both values to each other doesn’t change this fact, leaving base damage at 90 would’ve meant a smaller reduction percentage.

(Basedamage: 90 X 0,755 = 67,95 ≈ 68 & Modifier: 450% X 0,755 = 339,75 ≈ 340%)

Next point is that SD is far from dead, especially because you still need 0 critical strike chance, freeing alot of item-mods, in addition to a ridiculous double scaling from throwing and melee damage modifiers. It’s still one of the easiest league starter build with very low requirements to deal absurd amounts of damage with very low effort and few required items.
Let’s be honnest going from 2-3 million dmg/SD with maxgear and buffs to 1,5-2,25 million is still more than enough to easily clear all available content.


It was very powerful, and will continue to be powerful. Maxroll thinks it will still be the best build in the game come 1.0. So I’m not too upset by the nerf.

Shadow daggers was stupidly OP before 1.0, now it’s just OP.

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This, even though no one listens to poor Zathras.

To OP:

EHG has a philosophy of not nerfing builds to be unusable or to be worse than others including specific skill changes unlike other studios. Anything that’s out of bounds gets nerfed to be “very strong” as their first rebalance.

Either you trust the head of EHG saying it does 24% less damage overall after you scale it or you don’t. :slight_smile:


If you want it civil, would you mind removing the hyperbole? The universe is not ending, it’ll still do decent damage and as you say, mostly from range.

I do, Zathras was/is awesome.


First you did your math wrong. Since its going 90 to 68 its a 24.5% nerf, not the other way around (which is weird because you did it the OPPOSITE/yet correct why when doing the added damage effectiveness) so since both parts are 24.5%, its a total 24.5% nerf

You can say the problem is the ease of application and always crit is the problem, but thats the same as with the nerf, It just dealt too much damage before. All of it contributes to it dealing really high damage.

So lowering the damage IS the correct way to nerf it. You can nerf other parts of it instead but the goal is still to simply make it deal less damage.

Some builds are just easier than others, some just come online sooner than others.

I think it would be bad to have a game where every build is pretty meh early and required a lot of scaling from gear to make it fun. Needs variety.

Crit vul isnt a bait either. I’m not sure how you think +10%-20% FLAT crit added to your character before increased calculations is bad ( in the case of auto crit stuff I guess, but whos getting baited by that because people that dont know what they are doing)

^ Ignore, Reddit lied to me

Crit vul is still strong if you can reach 5+ stacks consistently. Anything that frees up a an affix on gear is pretty good.

Anyway, the proc is still really strong, which is good. Hopefully the game gets harder at end game and other builds are continually buffed until they feel as good as SD.

Side note, I believe they are making a pretty big mistake with Dive Bomb skill. They probably made it strong because of the cooldown, but falc gets so many ways to reduce the cooldown that it makes it insane. (Meanwhile flame reave is in the trash pretty much in comparison)

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That’s not how it works. The flat crit isn’t affected by the player’s crit chance because it’s an increase to the target’s chance to take a crit, not an increase to your chance to crit it.


I was told wrong then (why did I believe some reddit guy speaking confidently about it lol) . Still seems just fine though. Easily can maintain 10 stacks on a lot of builds that use it. So its not really a bait still. +20 flat even at the end of calculation is still extremely strong.

TBF, it certainly used to act as though it were player base crit chance. Either that or 50-100 stacks or however many were needed to get to 100% crit chance used to be stupidly easy to get to & maintain with Flurry.

To the math lovers, is a rough estimate, as the added damage from the skill gets extra from passives and weapons, and the other one is the multiplier for all the the added damage.

Don’t try to be accurate if we don’t know the X of the formula (where X is added damage from any source that applies). Thanks for the first grade school math. Mostly unnecessary.

Maybe I didn’t explain myself clear enough (probably): The nerf is NOT ENOUGH to not consider SD as the META way of dealing damage with rogue.

I am saying the nerf thingy, not as an hyperbole, is because we have seen this one in the only shield for a long time. Bastion of honor:

  • small nerf: didn’t fix the issue, still uncontested best shield.
  • small nerf: didn’t fix the issue, still uncontested best shield.
  • huge nerf: dead item.

So IF this is the road for SD, if they will kill the debuff completely (is a supposition based on prior situations, crit vulnerability is another). Is not just better to keep things simple, and remove it completely?

Crit vulnerability has more into it. You don’t waste 10 points to get 25% extra crit (not flat or increased, just extra), went from hero (quite OP) to zero. The thing was, marksman relied on it and it was one of their main features (able to ignore crit with heavy passive point investment). Pretty much like SD to blade is now, if not a bit worse?. They later added a crit/speed bow affix to give marksman some options, bye unique bows without LP if you go crit though. But the buff is a joke. So much better things to spend your passive points into.

But we do & we can make some assumptions about the pasisves & gear used.

It’s extra flat though, so instead of needing to get to 100% crit chance you only need to get to 75% (or whatever). Unless I misunderstood what you meant 'cause “extra” isn’t used in arpgs.

As someone who played this game for a bit and was there when the realy heavy handed nerfs where thrown out left and right I’m eager to see how batshit crazy people will be when EHG starts to nerf the shit out of overperforming classes again and again. note to myself: Buy popcorn!

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When? On endgame? at the beginning? T7 flat damage or just T5? You’re just giving me more reasons stating we cannot point an accurate number. Anyways we all get the idea of the range of the nerf.

Flat gets multiplied with increased, so that would be confusing. Call it whatever but that’s the idea. Stays out of the crit flat x increased and is added on top.

If it was extra flat player crit chance, yes, but it’s not, it’s a debuff for the mob so it’s more likely to take a crit. The player modifiers don’t interact with the crit vulnerability debuff (anymore).

Reports from the CT team are that the nerf left the build still very playable. It was like really, really strong before, and it’s now still really strong.

Marksman is probably the worst class right now by a mile. playable? sure, like everything. Whoever wants an unnecessary hard mode…

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I have my doubts, the build has always suffered a little with defenses. You really need a huge investment to it become OP, and many things around here are said without lot of context.
Im afraid shadow daggers could be doomed, the moment it went in players radar and them influciencing Devs to trash another great mechanic the game have.

Shadow dagger is indeed OP, but the mechanic has a lot of particularities that taken out of the context make it be a lot more the “big broken skill” than it actually was.
Just to mention two, one is the mana management and the other is give up defensive layers in a char that is already squishy in order to get relevant damage agaisnt bosses.

Meanwhile acolyte and mage lovers have a free páss to 20K ward with low investment.

yeah, my old tempest strike druid was playable.