I don’t agree with this premise that movement skills need to provide invulnerability. Usually, moving is not a time when you’re particularly more vulnerable than normal. I guess you’re thinking of some exceptional cases like running through Lagon beams. But that fight and others like it are designed so that there is a fair opportunity to evade them without having to cross the DoT. If you absolutely have to do that specific thing, I think it’s fine for it to be conditional on certain classes or uniques.
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I can agree in principle with this, however if you random it you are likely to be able to have such tools, given 4/5 classes are given the get out of aoe skill for free. No investment No mastery No unique required. Its not build defining, or even a skill you swap into for a specific fight its just there for free and if you random into your class you are statistically likely going to have it.
I agree in principle: X class having the advantage in Y situation and so on down the list, but when it is 4/5 it does not feel like a meaningful decision more of an oversight.
Edit:
This case also comes up more often then people think. Yes Lagon is a thing, just a thing, but it comes up with other mobs. The LE podcast briefly touched on this issue with Diamond matrons and how its easier and more satisfying to scrub the entire echo then deal with them.
But touching on Lagon what it turns the fight into is 4/5 classes get a 2nd bite at the apple, where as a wrong choice for a sentinel is simply death. Very touhou.
Not entirely…
Mage can Teleport over Lagon’s beam without taking damage.
Rogue’s Shift will take damage if you don’t have the invulnerability node (obviously).
Acolyte can Transplant over Lagon’s beam without taking damage.
Primalist’s Fury Leap will take damage if you try & leap over the beam.
So 2/5 classes get “a second bite of the apple”.
Fair enough, though I suppose it is more of a Lagon problem then a movement skill balance problem. What is that meme with the three dragon heads? yea thats how I feel about Lagon but Fair enough, I stand corrected.
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Lagon’s problems are all about the size of his hitbox, minions & the base of his model being too far below the player to be able to proc “nearby” effects, his sweeping eye beam isn’t one of them, it’s an easily avoidable mechanic.
Not a clue.
Disagree. I have a hand injury and even after your tips in the previous thread still cant avoid it. Yes that is a me problem, having said that it is one of the more nebulous attacks. By that I mean it has no “area indicator” I also suppose that given the number of people who have complained about it and the rarity of the specific eye beam pattern( as a solution) also lends credence that even those who can reliably avoid it, are unsure of the exact nature.
Timeline bosses- Dungeon Bosses- Lagon “Herp Derp I have a one shot eye lazer” Sure you do Lagon no put the paste down, its not snack time. --Context added.
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By that I mean it has no “area indicator” I also suppose that given the number of people who have complained about it and the rarity of the specific eye beam pattern( as a solution) also lends credence that even those who can reliably avoid it, are unsure of the exact nature.
I had a very difficult time predicting this attack at first, but I found a way that mostly works. Before he uses his beam attack, he does 2 things. His eyes glow red, and he stops what he’s doing to face you. What I like to do is make sure i’m standing as far away from the direction he’s looking as possible, and then watch for him to turn towards me. When he turns, he’s either going to swat you with a tentacle (which you may or may not want to move for) or shoot you with an eye beam. If his eyes are glowing, you can just move away before the beam even appears.
There is one other attack that makes his eyes glow red, but if i remember right, he doesn’t actually turn to face you for this one.
All that said, I do wish that some of the sentinel’s movement abilities were a bit easier to use or more useful in this kind of situation. Like others have said though, I think this is more of a “Lagon” issue than a Sentinel issue, although that’s just my opinion.
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This is going to sound harsh but try and imagine it with a gentler tone, and it is not entirely directed at you but in general.
My reasons may not be yours, both in specific and general examples. A lot of users have derided my reasons and suggested alternatives. This is fine nothing wrong with a difference in view.
However the core of my position remains unchanged. Leap, Shift, Teleport, Transplant, and Sentinel does not complete the set. Lagon is just the easiest way to illustrate one example, and see above about reasons.
Having said that given the tendency to want to rely on just move mechanics because balance is “hard” honestly is it really wrong to want the same treatment for each class? A Point move skill, same investment requirement. Please see above posts about making a fair comparison with the movement skills.
“fair” is subjective.
“Is it wrong to want the same treatment for each class?”
If you want the classes to be different and have their own flavor, maybe. You could argue that the ‘flavor’ of a class should come in the way it kills enemies instead of the way it moves around, but movement is part of each class’s “kit”, and we don’t want those kits to be the same. By definition, the more different the classes are, the less “fair” it will be in very specific circumstances. Each class should have strengths AND weaknesses. Something that stuck out to me earlier was you saying that 4/5 classes have it one way, and that sentinel should be included. (I’m paraphrasing). In my mind, that just means you feel movement abilities are one of the sentinel’s weaknesses. There’s nothing specifically wrong with that, if they want each class to have strengths and weaknesses. Whether it’s TOO MUCH of a weakness is definitely up for debate. It’s my least played class, so i can only talk about it in terms of the theory of game balance and such. I’m not disagreeing with you. Like I said, I don’t really like the sentinel’s movement skills either, and I ALWAYS go for the 1 second of invulnerability when I play my rogues, so I can relate to what you feel.
My advice would be to stop assuming that the movement abilities have to be “equal” in some way, and just describe what you feel the sentinel is lacking when it comes to movement. Hopefully a dev can pop in and address that aspect of it. Something like “I feel the sentinel struggles when using movement abilities to travel long distances while avoiding damage”. I have a feeling that sentinel has that weakness on purpose. I don’t particularly like that in an ARPG, but I don’t want to see something like the generic D3 “roll” on consoles either.
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Given the pushback from this thread, and how much weight is given to the vote system in general, not to mention the fact that it has yet to be brought up I am pretty sure the odds are too low to matter. Perhaps it is just a me issue, not to pour my life out but after my purchase I had to take a large amount of time off due to an injury. Now my play ability is lowered, the only class I have been able to both enjoy and progress has been Sentinel and the large limiting factor for me is finding a fair comparable move skill.
I think I made my position clear and I got a ton of pushback because apparently people make a fair comparison between teleport and void cleave. So again I cant put a lot of faith in the situation.
So I just think its time to find something else.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting different results.
Guess-ill-uninstall.meme
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Like I said, it’s not about comparisons, but about how viable the ability is in the overall kit of the class. There’s WAAY too many variables to make anything “fair”, and that’s assuming that everything SHOUD be fair in this particular aspect.
Hope things work out for you though.
The devs don’t run a democracy, though they do take all of our feedback/vews into account, yours, mine, even Heavy’s (though they aren’t making a Souls-like)!
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I only skimmed but did no one bring up javelin?
Speccing javelin for movement is becoming a really enjoyable thing for me these days. it costs low mana, can be a vector to get healing/armor if you so choose, or can be use to grant other minor bonuses etc. And best of all, does not require an enemy to use. You simply throw it and go to it.
You can make arguments on non specced vs specced movement skills, but thats an entire different issue of hotkey space imo. Since if you have 5 skills specced without one of them being a movement key, and you cant proc one of the skills, then you cant even use a movement skill anyways cause your hotkeys are full.
Give jav a try if you have not, it really is one of sentinels most fluid movement skills, and even offers the potential for double movement if you take lunge because the movement lockout of jav is only 1 second.
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In general I get the desire to have a movement skill on Sentinel that doesn’t require a target (Lunge) or has special weapon restriction for its base function (Shield Rush).
If you are used to transplant, shift, leap or teleport / surge anywhere at any given time, the Sentinel can feel restricted in that sense.
From my personal experience, I barely ever use Shield Rush as a movement skill. Its mana cost is very high and it feels very clunky, as it’s not instant. And if you target a region that is not accessible, it won’t even go off. Not to mention that it is bugged and the skill very often won’t stop when you release the button. It’s not working for me as an “oh shit” button because of this.
Lunge is one of my favourite skills in the game especially after the rework. I like the Javelin and smite branches. It cost few mana and has fast cooldown. Until empowered monoliths I also most of the time don’t miss the “oh shit” escape mechanism of the skill as it can only transport you into trouble, but not out if it. This becomes necessary at later stages of the game.
Same for the teleport function of smite. Great to get into battle and a good buff, but poor at escaping.
The javelins lunge function offers the freedom of moving without a target, but in comparison to teleport, shift & co it cost a bit more time as you have to double tab. This can cost your life in dense situations even if its just a disadvantage of milliseconds.
So it’s not the sheer amount of movement skills or abilities of the Sentinel. He has the most options of all classes. We see a lot of people complain about Primalistvwith only having that one leap that has a relatively long cd with a relatively longer travel time compared to other movement skills.
But it’s the Sentinels ability to escape when surrounded. People say “but it’s the tank class, you should not be escaping, you are supposed to tank stuff”. Good luck with that tactic on empowered 200+. My playstyle is more circling around packs and avoid being surrounded. At higher difficulty it feels more like playing a Rogue than playing a tank.
You can lunge to enemies on the edge of mob packs and walk out if the mob from there. But again that’s milliseconds that can meant death at higher difficulty.
So I agree with OP in that regard. I’m not sure if I would want an additional movement skill like leap or turn lunge into a shift mechanic. But the Sentinel should have a reliable “oh shit” button. Rebuke with a rework to make this skill fun and viable to use could also be a measure.
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Seems to me like different people have different experiences, and this difference speaks to a larger design flaw.
Well yea because, now this is going to sound heretical but, the primalist is more of a tank class then the sentinel is. That is simply due to how the under the hood math works and the value of picking up DR in your kit as opposed to stacking armor/resists/crit avoid. By that I mean the Sentinel has access to “free” suffixes because their kit provides the potential to pick up a large amount of that load. However reaching that same layered defense is not exclusive to the Sentinel, all the classes can do it, and picking up the DR in Primalist means that once the defense layers are in place a primalist is more tanky because of the DR, generally.
So looking at the situation we got people trying to compare teleport to void cleave, because well its the internet. We got people who are upset about the flavor because they draw the line at a heavily armored warrior on horseback(D3 Crusader) but a man leaping through the air is fine. We got devs leaning in on the just move balancing design. We got a “Tank” class not designed to tank, and leaning on failed math.
I mean Rogues do get the 2nd best shield in the game via arrowguard, a near exclusive form of defense in dodge/glancing blow and guaranteed avoidance in their skills.
So when you put it all in place, and strong views all around, I still cant find any logical reason for a Sentinel not to have access to the same point click movement skill as the rest of the classes. @Llama8 brought up a good point, to some extent the existing movement skills already feel different due to some being dashes, others true teleports, and some having built in functions such as damage.
Specifically on experiences - the game is still evolving and the experiences that people have will be based on the “when” they experienced things and this could cloud or “flavour” things… e.g. I havent really played spellblade since it was nerfed from being a godlike tank and the regen sentinel that could tank the emperor of bones is no longer possible…
Just saying that what might be considered a design flaw could simply be one persons experience playing the game at a specific point in time…
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This is generally true, and as humans we are prone to feelings over facts. However
It is what it is and the ability to set aside feelings is a pretty important factor.
3 of the 5 classes have “point & click” movement skills (Fury Leap, Teleport & Transplant), 1 has a “point & hold” (Shield Charge) & the other has a fixed distance dash (Shift). IMO, the classes having different ways isn’t a bad thing, it gives the classes flavour. Fury Leap is a big buff Barbarian Primalist throwing himself into (or out of battle), Teleport is an effete caster using his eldritch magic to send himself to a different point in spacetime, Transplant is an abominable use for a corpse but it serves the Acolyte’s uses, Shift is a lithe assassin using her athletic abilities to get her the #### out of dodge while Shield Rush is a heavily armoured warrior rushing headlong into combat not giving a #### who’s in his way because he trusts in his shield & armour.
Shield rush is not comparable fairly to the other skills you mentioned. You “can” compare them but no matter how persuasive you are, your underlying position is flawed, just like you can also compare a Lama to a suspension bridge.
No, you just don’t want to compare them because you’ve decided that Shield Rush is inherently & fataly flawed, despite it having an “infinite” range (unless there’s something in it’s path, or it goes full Dalek & you hit a ramp). That’s entirely your prerogative, we all have biases, but Shield Rush does have it’s upsides & can be better than the other movement skills.