Sentinel movement skill

Feedback and Suggestions
49

“fair” is subjective.

“Is it wrong to want the same treatment for each class?”

If you want the classes to be different and have their own flavor, maybe. You could argue that the ‘flavor’ of a class should come in the way it kills enemies instead of the way it moves around, but movement is part of each class’s “kit”, and we don’t want those kits to be the same. By definition, the more different the classes are, the less “fair” it will be in very specific circumstances. Each class should have strengths AND weaknesses. Something that stuck out to me earlier was you saying that 4/5 classes have it one way, and that sentinel should be included. (I’m paraphrasing). In my mind, that just means you feel movement abilities are one of the sentinel’s weaknesses. There’s nothing specifically wrong with that, if they want each class to have strengths and weaknesses. Whether it’s TOO MUCH of a weakness is definitely up for debate. It’s my least played class, so i can only talk about it in terms of the theory of game balance and such. I’m not disagreeing with you. Like I said, I don’t really like the sentinel’s movement skills either, and I ALWAYS go for the 1 second of invulnerability when I play my rogues, so I can relate to what you feel.

My advice would be to stop assuming that the movement abilities have to be “equal” in some way, and just describe what you feel the sentinel is lacking when it comes to movement. Hopefully a dev can pop in and address that aspect of it. Something like “I feel the sentinel struggles when using movement abilities to travel long distances while avoiding damage”. I have a feeling that sentinel has that weakness on purpose. I don’t particularly like that in an ARPG, but I don’t want to see something like the generic D3 “roll” on consoles either.

2 Likes
50

Given the pushback from this thread, and how much weight is given to the vote system in general, not to mention the fact that it has yet to be brought up I am pretty sure the odds are too low to matter. Perhaps it is just a me issue, not to pour my life out but after my purchase I had to take a large amount of time off due to an injury. Now my play ability is lowered, the only class I have been able to both enjoy and progress has been Sentinel and the large limiting factor for me is finding a fair comparable move skill.

I think I made my position clear and I got a ton of pushback because apparently people make a fair comparison between teleport and void cleave. So again I cant put a lot of faith in the situation.

So I just think its time to find something else.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting different results.
Guess-ill-uninstall.meme

51

Blockquote

Like I said, it’s not about comparisons, but about how viable the ability is in the overall kit of the class. There’s WAAY too many variables to make anything “fair”, and that’s assuming that everything SHOUD be fair in this particular aspect.

Hope things work out for you though.

52

The devs don’t run a democracy, though they do take all of our feedback/vews into account, yours, mine, even Heavy’s (though they aren’t making a Souls-like)!

2 Likes
53

I only skimmed but did no one bring up javelin?

Speccing javelin for movement is becoming a really enjoyable thing for me these days. it costs low mana, can be a vector to get healing/armor if you so choose, or can be use to grant other minor bonuses etc. And best of all, does not require an enemy to use. You simply throw it and go to it.

You can make arguments on non specced vs specced movement skills, but thats an entire different issue of hotkey space imo. Since if you have 5 skills specced without one of them being a movement key, and you cant proc one of the skills, then you cant even use a movement skill anyways cause your hotkeys are full.

Give jav a try if you have not, it really is one of sentinels most fluid movement skills, and even offers the potential for double movement if you take lunge because the movement lockout of jav is only 1 second.

2 Likes
54

In general I get the desire to have a movement skill on Sentinel that doesn’t require a target (Lunge) or has special weapon restriction for its base function (Shield Rush).

If you are used to transplant, shift, leap or teleport / surge anywhere at any given time, the Sentinel can feel restricted in that sense.

From my personal experience, I barely ever use Shield Rush as a movement skill. Its mana cost is very high and it feels very clunky, as it’s not instant. And if you target a region that is not accessible, it won’t even go off. Not to mention that it is bugged and the skill very often won’t stop when you release the button. It’s not working for me as an “oh shit” button because of this.

Lunge is one of my favourite skills in the game especially after the rework. I like the Javelin and smite branches. It cost few mana and has fast cooldown. Until empowered monoliths I also most of the time don’t miss the “oh shit” escape mechanism of the skill as it can only transport you into trouble, but not out if it. This becomes necessary at later stages of the game.

Same for the teleport function of smite. Great to get into battle and a good buff, but poor at escaping.

The javelins lunge function offers the freedom of moving without a target, but in comparison to teleport, shift & co it cost a bit more time as you have to double tab. This can cost your life in dense situations even if its just a disadvantage of milliseconds.

So it’s not the sheer amount of movement skills or abilities of the Sentinel. He has the most options of all classes. We see a lot of people complain about Primalistvwith only having that one leap that has a relatively long cd with a relatively longer travel time compared to other movement skills.

But it’s the Sentinels ability to escape when surrounded. People say “but it’s the tank class, you should not be escaping, you are supposed to tank stuff”. Good luck with that tactic on empowered 200+. My playstyle is more circling around packs and avoid being surrounded. At higher difficulty it feels more like playing a Rogue than playing a tank.

You can lunge to enemies on the edge of mob packs and walk out if the mob from there. But again that’s milliseconds that can meant death at higher difficulty.

So I agree with OP in that regard. I’m not sure if I would want an additional movement skill like leap or turn lunge into a shift mechanic. But the Sentinel should have a reliable “oh shit” button. Rebuke with a rework to make this skill fun and viable to use could also be a measure.

1 Like
55

Seems to me like different people have different experiences, and this difference speaks to a larger design flaw.

Well yea because, now this is going to sound heretical but, the primalist is more of a tank class then the sentinel is. That is simply due to how the under the hood math works and the value of picking up DR in your kit as opposed to stacking armor/resists/crit avoid. By that I mean the Sentinel has access to “free” suffixes because their kit provides the potential to pick up a large amount of that load. However reaching that same layered defense is not exclusive to the Sentinel, all the classes can do it, and picking up the DR in Primalist means that once the defense layers are in place a primalist is more tanky because of the DR, generally.

So looking at the situation we got people trying to compare teleport to void cleave, because well its the internet. We got people who are upset about the flavor because they draw the line at a heavily armored warrior on horseback(D3 Crusader) but a man leaping through the air is fine. We got devs leaning in on the just move balancing design. We got a “Tank” class not designed to tank, and leaning on failed math.

I mean Rogues do get the 2nd best shield in the game via arrowguard, a near exclusive form of defense in dodge/glancing blow and guaranteed avoidance in their skills.

So when you put it all in place, and strong views all around, I still cant find any logical reason for a Sentinel not to have access to the same point click movement skill as the rest of the classes. @Llama8 brought up a good point, to some extent the existing movement skills already feel different due to some being dashes, others true teleports, and some having built in functions such as damage.

56

Specifically on experiences - the game is still evolving and the experiences that people have will be based on the “when” they experienced things and this could cloud or “flavour” things… e.g. I havent really played spellblade since it was nerfed from being a godlike tank and the regen sentinel that could tank the emperor of bones is no longer possible…

Just saying that what might be considered a design flaw could simply be one persons experience playing the game at a specific point in time…

1 Like
57

This is generally true, and as humans we are prone to feelings over facts. However

It is what it is and the ability to set aside feelings is a pretty important factor.

58

3 of the 5 classes have “point & click” movement skills (Fury Leap, Teleport & Transplant), 1 has a “point & hold” (Shield Charge) & the other has a fixed distance dash (Shift). IMO, the classes having different ways isn’t a bad thing, it gives the classes flavour. Fury Leap is a big buff Barbarian Primalist throwing himself into (or out of battle), Teleport is an effete caster using his eldritch magic to send himself to a different point in spacetime, Transplant is an abominable use for a corpse but it serves the Acolyte’s uses, Shift is a lithe assassin using her athletic abilities to get her the #### out of dodge while Shield Rush is a heavily armoured warrior rushing headlong into combat not giving a #### who’s in his way because he trusts in his shield & armour.

59

Shield rush is not comparable fairly to the other skills you mentioned. You “can” compare them but no matter how persuasive you are, your underlying position is flawed, just like you can also compare a Lama to a suspension bridge.

60

No, you just don’t want to compare them because you’ve decided that Shield Rush is inherently & fataly flawed, despite it having an “infinite” range (unless there’s something in it’s path, or it goes full Dalek & you hit a ramp). That’s entirely your prerogative, we all have biases, but Shield Rush does have it’s upsides & can be better than the other movement skills.

67

Please remember to follow the Code of Conduct and try to keep conversations civil. This goes for all involved members in this topic. I’ll be going through the thread cleaning things up shortly.

On the topic of movement skills, it’s something which we’ve discussed a number of times, and while there is certainly some things that may change, we’re unlikely to see any sort of larger scale changes any time in the near future, or before 1.0.

As other users have pointed out, it is our intention that all classes have unique and distinct movement skills. While each movement skill can be simplified to a certain level that can make them seem similar, the two which are very similar are teleport and transplant.

As far as sentinel movement skills go, if we’re talking about “mobility” skills (excluding things like warpath), sentinel currently has 3, with strong variations in addition. Lunge, Shield Rush, and Volatile Reversal. In Addition, sentinel can spec into dash with javelin, which causes them to move to wherever the standard is (including if it’s attached to an enemy). Sentinel’s movements all tend to lead him towards a target - which is by design. That’s the general idea of a Sentinel is they’re a soldier that goes into the fray, not skirts the fray like a Rogue or Sorcerer.

In exchange, Sentinel has more options to bear the brunt - for example while Sentinels cannot escape some things as easily, more often than not they can simple use rebuke to tank through it instead. Sentinel is not intended to play like a light and nimble class but instead be a heavy steadfast fighter. However, that playstyle is not completely ignored - you can use the Paranoia Unique helm to make lunge no longer require a target - which follows the purpose of many Uniques to be able to extend a class playstyle by offering some new unique mechanic or power. As far as being invulnerable during movement, Volatile reversal offers this by default, and Lunge can be specced into it.

We do not feel Sentinel is lacking any movement options or flexibility at the current time.

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68

That aim is absolutely fine for me. Although I feel Rebuke is not a skill that feels very good in that regard, atm. I’m really looking forward to an overhaul if that skill. It’s a great tool to tank big nukes from bosses when timed correctly. For larger crowds, it is not working that well. Because the damage that applies after channeling is often not enough to kill enemies around you. So you just delay taking damage. You are good for as long as you channel. After that enemies begin to hurt again and during the channel nothing happened to make the situation better. While channeling you can’t move, so you can’t walk out either.

I’d really love to see a knockback after the channel to give the player the room to escape after Rebuke. Warcry is a much better defensive skill in that regard.

Or some kind of damage reduction buff. Currently you can get resistances that are kind of pointless if you already have maxed them. Getting a boost of Endurance Threshold or even plain “less damage taken” would be nice.

So if you improve the tools for the Sentinel to really sustain that playstyle, this would be great. Currently I don’t see it working as you say.

1 Like
69

Agree with you regarding Rebuke… I have tried it a few times as some way to tank things you cannot avoid, but the problem I have is very much the same as your comments…

You have to sacrifice a skill slot to get the 2 ish seconds of only partial invulnerability with some very minor regen/mana etc. with totally irrelevant things like res boosts… Added to that anre perhaps more importantly, the “after channelling end” boosts are literally just afterthoughts - especially when you compare it to another much more useful skill…

I think a knockback would be the bare minimum that that skill should get… and if, based on the devs comments on Sentinel play ideal, then Rebuke needs to reworked to be far more useful… I would suggest it becoming a proper defensive only invulnerability skill with no dps and perhaps provided temporary CC type features (Stun, Knockback, Chill, Slow etc) via node choices and linked to gear - eg. if using a 2handed weapon, Knockback is further, if using a mace, you stun on end of channelling, or shield, you rush forward a few paces, or even proc Void Reversal if you have it on your toolbar…

If this made it possible for a Sentinel with Rebuke to withstand some one-shots, that, to me at least, would fit into the devs comments on targetted Sentinel playstyle.

1 Like
70

I agree that a knockback node would be interesting for rebuke and makes the skill more attractive.

Though I disagree with your point, that one is helpless once the channeling ends.

Your cooldowns of your other skills come off.
You could lunge out for example.

There is also the node in rebuke, that lets you keep the rebuke buffs for channeling duration and even longer.

So, with that you should have enough time and buffs to get out of a bad situation.

I personally don’t think rebuke needs an overhaul.
There is also an quite interesting build from IRL_Lizard that combines rebuke + devouring orb.

Devouring orb does the DMG, while you channel inside rebuke and so on.

71

Yeah. Almost any skill has at least one viable build guide somewhere because people like lizard make kind of a challenge out of this. I’d guess that rebuke is one if the least played/favourite skills (for a reason).

Imho, the skill feels very underwhelming and clunky.

72

Rebuke is in a strange spot. It almost fits the “If a skill/item/spec etc is strong enough, people will play it regardless of how clunky it is” metric. For predictable damage sources it’s incredible, but horrible to use otherwise and takes up a whole skill slot to do it.

I doubt many seriously consider it outside of pushing very hard bosses (and probably swapping to something else for trash) or those playing around with rudimentary thorns builds.

73

Having VK and paladin myself my only complaint is that shield rush cost too much mana even with the 6/6 mana reduction node its crazy. Otherwise it has 3 varied options to use which is pretty good.

1 Like
74

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