Season 1 had 71,727 peak players.
Season 2 had 150,591 peak players.
They literally DOUBLED! Season 2 was a massive success for LE.
You clearly aren’t processing hardly any of the information.
Season 2 PoE 2 Launch - 246,345 (april 4th)
Season 2 PoE 2 6 days latter - 185,413 (april 10th’s GGG had emergency meetings, interviews due to overwhelming negative reviews tanking their rating)
Season 2 PoE 2 now LE launches 122,198 (They lost over 50% of their players right after launch and most of them quit to play LE. These are the facts, most people jumped ship. PoE Season 2 continued to hemorrhage players at an alarming rate)
Season 2 was a massive failure they had no player retention, got review bombed again only 13% postive reviews for their season and overall are down too 69%. GGG and Jonathon did an apology tour and tried to save their disastrous season for a reason. Everyone hated it, their vision and quit to play LE because they wanted to have fun.
Like most players I played PoE 2 season 2 for a week and quit. It was unplayable at launch and a frustrating disaster. Actually the worst launch of a season in the history of GGG.
Everything is fine. LE is pumping out content while PoE 2 has had massive set backs with their games and community. They are behind on Development and irritated players so much they decided to come to LE doubling their players from the previous season. LE has welcomed the PoE 2 refugees that are frustrated with bad design, bugs and issues.
Overall Steam rating LE - 78.77% PoE 2 - 69.40%
LE had an overwhelmingly positive Season 2 boosting their rating and doubling it’s player base, PoE 2 had an overwhelming negative Season 2 bombing their rating. This is real easy common sense and the only one coping here again is you.
Again I hope PoE 2 is a great game some day, it’s just very far from it currently. I love games and want them to thrive but GGG has their work cut out for them to “win back” players. At least LE is here for us.
I love not being biased and just using the facts. Again Good luck and PoE 2 needs some luck too. Hope they have a better Season 3 and recover. Also thread is ridiculous and won’t bump it anymore I’ve proven my points.
You’re missing the 1.1 season in-between those two. 1.0 launched with 256k, 1.2 launched with 150k but there was also 1.1 with 72k in-between. While I do often disagree with Abomb, he can at least math.
Though I’m not quite sure he quite gets that people play multiple games, so those 50% that “jumped ship” from PoE s2 are more than capable of going back for s3 or s4 or taking a more extended leave as they desire & playing other things. And 246k → 122k isn’t “most people” by any stretch of a reasonable imagination, but it is a significant decrease (a teensy smidge over half), but how much does PoE 1 loose in a similar time period? That would be a more reasonable comparator.
you have used everything but facts i love not being biased and just used facts comon bro do some high quality bait for once il also come laugh at you 2 weeks into the LE cycle season when they wont even have 50k concurent players anymore cuz of PoE 2
Ok, do you know what ratios (aka proportions) are?
He says it here:
This is what he’s talking about.
LE more than doubled it’s peak players from s1 to s2 (71.7k → 150.6k = 110% increase).
PoE 2 s1 (Dawn of the Hunt, Apr 25) 245.9k down from a peak of 578.6k in December when EA started, that is a decline of 57.5%.
Do I need to explain to you why a growth of 110% is better than a decline of 57.5%?
No, he doesn’t, he’s looking at the numerical trend, LE’s s2 performed very well compared to s1 (71.7k → 150.6k) versus PoE2’s lackluster first league (578.6k → 245.9k). I’m not going to go into the reasons why, nor am I going to say that that trend is going to continue 'cause I don’t have a clue, but if one just looks at those two sets of numbers, there relative performance is quite clear.
Is PoE2 much larger than LE? Of course it is, will GGG reverse that trend sooner or later? Yeah, most likely. Did LE have a much better s2 than PoE2’s s1? Absolutely.
He can, it’s just not the maths you think it is.
That point is inevitable, people change games, some will stop playing LE to play PoE2, some won’t, some will try PoE2 & be pissed off & go back to LE, this is the way of things & there’s no need to get one’s knickers in a twist or all tribal/territorial about it.
As I said to him, he ignored LE’s drop from launch to Season 1. Which is most definitely relevant to the discussion. And comparing launch to the next season after it is apples and apples. It was 264k down to 71k which is a 73% drop. Which was worse than POE2’s.
POE2’s following season didn’t have the luxury of 9 months development time like LE had. So comparing their next seasons is a little bit disingenuous. But I do concede that that whole time period turned me off of Jonathan Rogers, but they have at least made some development and communication improvements and released a POE1 season.
He’s stating that one game is in clear decline while the other is rising, but it’s not as clear cut as he states. I wouldn’t care about his opinion except that he then extrapolates it to mean that LE has nothing to worry about with POE2’s launch date. And that this opinion is somehow a fact.
We already know there’s great overlap between content creators and players between the games. And I actually think LE will see another drop due to the changes (probably) not being nearly as big.
Yup, absolutely, though PoE 2 doesn’t have enough league starts to give any sort of trend & I’d never want to say that 2 data points (for each game) is anything like a trend which is why I framed it in the context of LE’s s2 being comparatively good compared to PoE 2’s s1.
Also true, but it was grom the company that has been producing PoE for well over a decade, so expe ting them to be able to do a better job isn’t too unreasonable I think.
Absolutely, all I would say, given the lack of data is that LE’s s2 did well while POE2’s s1 was disappointing.
Abomb does, to be fair, have a track record of doing that.
Yeah Jonathan really screwed the pooch in multiple ways. POE 1 is easy money and they should be able to have a full time team dedicated to pushing out leagues. I believe that they’ve claimed that they only had like 20 people working on leagues in the past.
I’ve heard that it’s very hard to get people work permits in NZ and so maybe that was a cause of big issues? And I know they don’t use remote workers, or at least didn’t, based on people being hired during COVID but not actually being able to work until they were allowed into the country.
Jonathan chose to hide the fact the POE 1 team was gutted in order to try and meet POE2 milestones. And so delays for POE’s next season were never properly explained.
Follow that up with a terribly petty and dismissive interview and frankly GGG deserved the negative feedback they received.
I personally haven’t bought access to POE2 because I find the first game to be too much work and I hate the idea that playing many builds optimally in POE2 means using WASD as you can attack and move simultaneously. I just hate WASD in ISO ARPGs.
Weird how people forget GGG was founded and did POE in 2006, EHG was founded in 2018 - 12 years is a huge head start for over all content and player base accumulation, give EHG and LE another couple of years with the direction they’re heading and the player base comparsion will be completely different. Players in both games love a new season launch and will jump on whichever is newest and jam it for days/weeks before changing or in a lot of lack of endurance cases just stop gaming vs the die hards who will still be building stuff at the end of the season.
No need to get so hung up on numbers they all climb, peak, dip and repeat. It is what it is but I stand by my words LE will be a dominant force in the future for sure.
Yes, but it’s also weird how people tend to hold companies to the same standards despite all that time and advances in game-design being made over the course of those years.
Obviously nobody judges Last Epoch 1.0 the same way as Path of Exile 1.0. Why? Because graphics changed. Because game mechanics were polished. Because competition already established a boatload of variety in ‘what works and what doesn’t’.
So blatantly ignoring those things and saying ‘give em time’ is not feasable.
One thing blatantly ignored by EHG is ‘Release your game in a baseline polished state in 1.0 and go from there’, which wasn’t done.
Why? As we can see it’s likely financial issues. All of that culminating up to now with bad decision after bad decision.
The release date of 1.3 is another major one. Close to PoE 2, close to gamescon… baffling. Push it 3 weeks back, have a stable playerbase, profit. Too late now though, all is announced, another screw-up simply, in the heap of many many many more.
You think so?
I don’t see many PoE player jumping and playing Torchlight Infinite.
I also don’t see many PoE players jumping into No Rest for the Wicked and playing the new content there as it came out a while ago.
They do it off-season at best… and that time is limited. This leads to everyone engaging with them not seeing those games which have a ‘fresh current state’ as easily and hence those games miss out. Not capturing the audience accordingly.
You’re right, we’re not in 2006 anymore, the market works entirely different. Either you stay present and visible… or you die out gradually.
I was specifically referring to the jump between LE and POE that might be why? I’ve not even played those other games, it’s weird the more arpgs people play the more opinions they seem to have on how others should play. I played Poe1 for over a decade, 100s of hours in Poe2 until I found LE and have not left since, nor will I.
I really don’t go around analysing game stat websites/graphs of player peaks etc I just based my comments loosely on the 10+ hours a day and how many people come from POE(s) and then say they’re leaving to try POE(s) again I actually actively play LE, still, this late in the season testing builds/skills and just having fun.
My reference to 2006 was just to point out theyve had a decade + of design, development, player feedback, marketing, accumulation of players from the marketing and from word of mouth. EHG will catch up they have the added bonus of seeing what has and hasn’t worked for other games and implementing things smarter. They also seem to listen to player base a lot better when it comes to feedback and actively look to keep dickheads like me happy in an already awesome game, lol.
Ive kind of gone off in a tangent, I apologise - I was just in a weird around about way trying to say the release date thing isn’t going to be as bad as people think, if they like the game they’ll stay if they wanna try POE they can go, it would happen the other way around too if POE dropped first a week or 2 into it people would still be curious. This is obviously for people who play both and not just one
Obviously. If someone sees a game and it is good they want it to succeed… so it stays active and is improved upon.
EHG created LE with the position of it being in-between the diablo series and Path of Exile, able to pull in the more casual players and also the more hardcore ones both. Which is a big ask… but basically means in realistic terms nothing else then ‘We provide a progression system which is in-between those two so both can partially align and those not feeling at home with either have us as a place’.
That’s the optimum.
Provided was a game which is extremely spotty in difficulty (decent First act, atrocious from Act 3-7 as it’s vastly too easy, then Lagon in Act 8 stomping everyone before it returns to basically nothing challenging at normal Monoliths before a sudden difficulty spike comes from traversing from normal to empowered monoliths. No smooth curve), unfinished (12 Acts planned, 10 released in 1.3, that’s a 1.0 situation which is mandatory to happen, unacceptable), a utterly broken market that self-destructs the longer it stays. Gold limit, nonsense acces restrictions which are unfitting, failing to provide proper search mechanics to even make it baseline usable in a reasonable manner.
Yes, I love this game, yes, I want it to suceed… but damn… throw me at least a bone rather then providing absolute slob-quality over and over without it being significantly improved and fixed. Fix major problems then expand. Solid foundation before expansion is mandatory, always was.
So to the question why the compare it:
Because other games provide good and bad things… and obviously players expect someone creating a game after those to include those positive aspects of those games without ignoring it. That’s what progress is. Take good, remove bad, polished experience.
Not upheld though.
That’s how you get blinded when only taking in a single avenue. You have no idea what else is out there if you only look at a single product. What do you compare it to? There is nothing for that. But the moment you got something to compare it to you get expectations… and those are good to have as it enforces a basic minimum quality to exist.
Yes, and all this design + development + player feedback is available to EHG as well. That’s called market research and a mandatory aspect for success.
You don’t go into the stock market, start buying random crap and expect success. You’ll loose all you have.
Do you think that’s different with games? With any service? With any product at all? No, it isn’t. Never was, hopefully never will be the case, it would be a disaster.
So you research, you prepare, you position well. If you don’t your success hinges purely on luck rather then skill. Yes, you can succeed… but it’s unlikely. So put yourself in the position so you will succeed.
It happened the last time that LE got a major hit… it’ll happen again. That’s bad for the game.
They already struggle, which is why they can’t go and put themselves into a dangerous position by their own making… which is simply why it’s baffling.
Yes, it might not have a massive effect… but EHG needs literally every… single… person currently.
I get where you’re coming from definitely, there’s some major good points in your post. Also people like what they like, it can be a objectively bad product which is for some reason loved… and it can be a objectively great product which is hated.
For example I know that Helldivers 2 is a objectively good game… but I still barely play it since it just doesn’t align with my core enjoyment. Also the game ‘Zed Zone’ which I bought a long while ago is a objectively bad game… but I enjoy it for specific gameplay elements it has despite being ‘bad’.
That’s all fine.
The difference between ‘good’ and ‘bad’ is purely quality. The higher the quality the higher the chance to avoid frustration and provide a purely enjoyable experience. And that is to be achieved. The only exception is for a game to be deliberately ‘jank’ to provide a specific gameplay feel. For example ‘Barotrauma’ does that. Objectively awful graphics, really weird physics… but the gameplay is phenomenal and fun… and the weird physics actually elevate this by making it hard to control and hence more chaotic, which is a big aspect of that game being successful.
LE is great, POE1 was great, no one forces anyone to play a game if you’re unhappy with what their words say and their actions provide just move on. No need to give yourself an ulcer on game forums over it bro lol! Lots of folks on here and reddit and on poe forums over the years saying the same things about how they should be running a game company but its weird cos EHG are the ones running it and the advice makes it seem like anyone can do it so I dont understand why others dont just go start their own game companies? Seems like with all the knowledge people have it would be a fricking breeze lmao
Honestly I’ve played this game for a loooooooot of hours and I’ve not really used these forums til the last few weeks but I see the same 3 names in almost every thread giving this cosmic advice and offering their valuable 2 cents worth but really it’s just 3 negative nancies who should move on. I realise I’ve made a mistake coming in here and on to these forums. I’’ shut the door on my way out.
Because individuals have individual strengths and weaknesses?
One person might be great in leading others, delegating tasks properly and communicating well. But they suck in coding.
The next is a coding master and knows how to make stuff but can’t convey information when talking to other people at all. So when they open their mouth and say something… you listen and try to understand instead of waving it off.
This is one of the core reasons in modern society why big companies tend to fail. Wrong person in leadership position, not listening to feedback given, nobody there to properly sort out between feedback and provide a coherrent solid direction. Not only the gaming sector hurts from it, it’s prevalent and people are sick of it.
Also why do you think someone writing much is enraged or emotional? I enjoy conveying information, you can look around, I write a boatload in this forum, most of my posts are those little novels because that’s simply my way of conveying information as I can’t filter important from non-important things well. Heck… I provided a mathematical example of game system comparisons to another user just yesterday which is longer then this and the last post.
Don’t read into people’s posts more then you can actually read.
Saves you frustration instead of getting pissed off for someone starting a discussion and not simply 100% agreeing with every aspect.
LOL.
And countries are shifting their National holiday, and couples are delaying their wedding days as not to crash with poE 2 release dates.
It is annoying some peopke act like LE is the “maybe game” to play after people are done with Poe2 league, and not a game that deserve to be play and compete on its own terms.
Right now POE 2 and LE has 4 digit players on steam. PoE 2 is not killing any game at the moment. EHG can just focus by having a good season, that returning players and new players will enjoy, they will be fine…
Of course we do not want LE to crash with similar games in release, but people need to stop acting poE 2 is like 2nd coming of spice girls.
I played Path of Exile 2 at release, it was alright, but wanted to wait for druid, it was supposed to be released a few weeks after release, than they delayed it and released huntress instead, they said Druid would definitely be released in August, now apparently, ITS STILL NOT COMING OUT.
I have absolutely no desire to play POE2 any more, I may give it a try if Druid ever gets released, but as of right now, I am dissapointed with the way POE2 has been going and I do not think I am alone.
The DEVS of POE2 keep making bad decisions.
I ALWAYS come back to Last Epoch. Its just so much fun with all the build customization.
Edit: SO Druid is getting released in POE2 at the end of august, but I will simply play both games than. As I am a Casual, I dont need to play 15 hours of POE2 per day , Im not ijnterested in the PVP or Competitive Multiplayer Aspects of either game, I am SOLO (OFFLINE) Player at heart…
Edit 2 : Titan Quest 2 is in early access now too! Hot Damn, is it already the season of ARPGs again? That’s 3 Amazing ARPGS all coming out with crazy new content.
I’m not particularly interested in POE2, but I think releasing it during Gamescom, plus giving streamers only a few days to play, is a terrible idea… It’s obvious that a large part of a game’s visibility comes from streamers, and 95% of them will skip LE and go for POE2 because it will generate more profit for them. Not to mention releasing it during Gamescom — that’s just over the top…
