I don’t think it’s an issue if it’s a key mechanic according to an official / developer / somebody in a place of authority. It’s a key mechanic for this build, apparently. I can understand a buff that goes away when you need it most being frustrating for players who are using it.
The question here is more, is there a reasonable way to make it work and would the game be more fun if it were fixed. I think that’s what this conversation should be about. Not who gets to officially say what is the “right way” for the game to be.
I completely agree. I don’t see the game unraveling if hungering souls has an easier way to maintain 3 minions on bosses. Especially because they’re subject to death just as normal and it’s another thing to manage during the fight.
It is a key mechanic when I have to pay attention to how many Vanguards I have, which gives me a much needed damage increase, because without it, my Hungering Souls barely move bosses health bar. It takes me 3 to 4 times more time to kill a boss.
I call this my build in so far as to the build I’m using. This is a Maxroll build.
But this is not a buff. It’s a QoL. I simply suggested for Harvested Legion to proc on hit vs bosses. That’s why the title says ‘Problem with Lich’s Skeleton Vanguards’ and not ‘Problem with Harvested Legion’. It just seems rather weird that a mechanic ceases to work on a boss. It’s the lack of control over an aspect of my build that bugs me.
My Shadow Dagger Bladedancer, which is weaker than a HS Lich kills bosses faster. Hell, even my Smite Hammerdin kills bosses faster, with way less effort. (literally stand still and ignore 90% of boss mechanics)
The point isn’t about saving slots and skill points. The point is, to make space for Summon Skeletons, I’d have to change the entire build. What’s the point of having a single target nuke HS at this point? Or better, what’s the point of making every Acolyte build, whether be Necro or Lich different? Just have them all use Summon Skeleton then, wouldn’t that be fun and diverse?
Also, I’m not demanding anything. I’ve stated this many times, I’m simply making a suggestion. But I have to defend my stance. I might sound more aggressive because you keep misstating my points and making assumptions that just aren’t true. It’s frustrating. I’m not the only one experiencing this issue. That should say something. And the only reason I made the suggestion I made, is because it seems minor to everything else I can think of (like why have Lich’s spawn minions at all? Just remove mechanics like Harvested Legion).
I’m only pointing out that a very important aspect of this particular build has an issue when fighting bosses.
Thanks. You can go. You add nothing to the discussion. All your points were refuted. I might have miswritten that part, as I’m replying to 3 people at the same time, with 2 of them contesting every single word I write. What I meant was that the post is about the inability to maintain Vanguards vs bosses. The on hit vs bosses was a mere suggestion I threw in my post.
If this is reason to ban me, then you should be banned too. Cos every single thing you wrote was demolished. If I’m slow, then you are what? Just go play the game and stop attempting to derail things.
If there is a reasonable way it wouldn’t be fun anymore. You are arround for some time iirc so you know the nodes that are talked about. Do you realy think having 2 passive points should make up for using up a skill slot or even a specilisation? I have no idea how you want to balance one against the other when on top of it 2 passive skill tree points translate into a 150% dmg mod that is in the worst case always active because someone uses 2-4 affixes to boost minions.
This makes it absurdly hard to balance from my point of view BUT if there isa way to do it I’m sure EHG will come up with one.
Well it isn’t at least from Mikes statement on Discord it seems so. It can’t even be a key mechanic because it isn’t implemented to work this way at all. Calling something a key mechanic without it even be a mechanic at all is a bit far fetched for me.
Doubble checking never hurts.
You want to change the mechanic of a “chance on kill” skill into a “chance on kill/rare+boss hit” and after this it will become a very important part of the build instantly because it triggers a skill passive you say it’s madatory for your build. When it’s changed it’s a key part, right now it’s a dmg boost if you AoE clear a ton of mobs.
So this is a build from a build guide page that was as well shown by the curse and now all of the sudden there is a problem while it worked well so far? I don’t understand why it works for some people and others want the game to be changed to play it.
Making it work on bosses what it wasn’t do before is a buff where I#m from because it makes something better. Having enough inventory space to play the game but beeing able to buy tripple the amount of inventory space is QoL because it increases something that is already there.
That’s a realy good point and a absolute fair thing to say. Then again having a rng procc added to the skill don’t offer you control in any way shape or form.
This is fair as well and a reason I don’t play HS that much because the skill isn’t that good at all and I’m not happy using it.
That’s my point! I would hate to pick summon skeletons and loose another skill that might have been good just to have 3 minions up 24/7 and have a 150% multi more. This is awefull and I would only play it on a minion build as a spammable or a filler skill if I have any space left on my bar.
100% correct! The build you intentionaly have chosen has problems killing bosses because it can’t make use of a “on kill” mechanic. I have AoE builds that take forever killing bosses but farm Monos crazy fast. I have single target builds that kill bosses pretty fast but are a dumpsterfire when it comes to AoE clears and I have builds that are inbetween. I always identified that as a “ME” problem rather then a “If the devs change this interaction that build will be far better!” problem.
I proposed a couple ideas about a way of doing it that I mentioned earlier. I’m never as concerned about the game being “balanced” as I am about the way it works making sense. Adjusting the way Lich gets or keeps vanguards for Unholy Trinity is fine with me, as long as the player has to do something periodically to keep the buff going.
To your second point, you’re talking past / ignoring what I said:
I don’t think it’s an issue if it’s a key mechanic according to an official / developer / somebody in a place of authority. It’s a key mechanic for this build, apparently.
The question here is more, is there a reasonable way to make it work […] Not who gets to officially say what is the “right way” for the game to be.
There is no one who gets to decide what the key aspect of a build I’m making is, except the player and what works in combination in the game. In other words, what exists in the game dictates what builds are viable and fun to play. The idea that someone doesn’t want it to be that way doesn’t change the issues of:
Does it work in a way that makes sense.
Would the game be more enjoyable / less frustrating if it worked differently.
Appeals to authority don’t really change the game as it exists. Moreover, if it should exist a certain way or not according to someone else isn’t really at issue when you’re proposing a new idea for a way it could exist instead. We’re not trying to fix someone else’s vision, in other words. We’re offering a new one.
We need to make really clear, we’re not talking about what any person of authority wants. We’re proposing something different entirely separate and unrelated to that.
Hope that helps clarify these points a little bit.
Your question to Mike was insanely biased and was missing major context. He basically just said “We like that lich’s summon minions from kills because it’s thematic.” He said nothing about the intended interactions between vanguards and hungering souls.
Also your question mentioned “Dark Retribution” which is in the necromancer tree and wasn’t even brought up in this discussion.
To be honest, I don’t really care how. I just want a way to do it, where as of right now, there’s nothing I can do. I’m fine with maintaining stacks, just give me a way to do it. To put in context, I’m a D1 and D2 player from back in the day (can’t state how many hours, but played D2 for over 2 years), I have over 2000 hours in PoE and I used to play WoW as a Heroic raider from TBC until MoP. Pressing buttons and following mechanics isn’t foreign to me. Overcoming adversity isn’t foreign to me. But when I don’t have control over something that lessens my experience with something is frustrating to me.
Edit: Also, I just threw in a suggestion cos it felt wrong just complaining about it and wanted to contribute an idea or suggestion. Cos just complaining doesn’t breed conversation. And with conversation we could get to somewhat of a coherent solution. But looks like it didn’t pan out like I was planning lol.
Yeah I simply went for both passives because both passives spawn the same minions. The important takeaway in Mikes answer to me was: I assume those nodes are “on kill” effects. Triggering something when someone dies is really key for the acolyte in general and we are often reluctant to extend that to boss hit for thematic purposes. Why? because they follow a design descission to make the Acolythe a “on kill” class.
The important takeaway from my view is: It’s not something that is actively on our radar for change. Why is it important to me? Because it showes there was no problem from the view of a dev and everything works as intended.
Then again I see why people wan’t this to be changed and it’s a obvious thing to jump at but the results would be bad. How high should the proccrate be? 5% because of the cast speed and attack speed that is stackable? With a reasonable procc chance that isn’t to high the node would still be bad in boss fights.
Now to something different: They could simply put a “low % chance on rare/boss hit to spawn minion x” node behind trinity and everything would be fine from my point of view. I’m just against such blatant interactions where 2 measly passive tree points enable 150% dmg multis.
Man, you’re still at it. I thought you were done. Mikes answer is irrelevant to this topic since you were extremely disingenuous with the way you asked him the question. You formed the question in a leading manner, without putting the real issue in question to have an answer that would favour you so that you would get the confirmation you so desperately wanted which was that (according to you) it is designed as intended. You’re dodgy asf man. Nothing you say should be taken seriously. You’re so ignorant in your view that you don’t realise what even you’re saying anymore, so you have to set up the question to favour you.
This already is in the game. Following your logic, it is designed as intended. And it’s not 2 measly passive points. This just shows how little you know about Lich and this build. Harvested Legion doesn’t give 150% damage multi. Unholy Trinity from the Hungering Souls skill tree does. So you’re okay with this when it’s for mapping, but against it when it’s vs bosses? You make absolutely no sense, and it all stems from your ignorance.
I show you how ignorant you are: while mapping, Hungering Souls the way it’s specced in the build I use does absolutely nothing. I use Bone Curse and Soul Feast to clear groups of mobs. Hungering Souls is specced here to deal single target damage. Which ceases to work because the Vanguards die to fast without any mechanics to respawn them. Further more, this build only starts working at around lvl 70’ish. Which by the time you spec, it won’t matter where in the passive tree the talent is. Also, you have to prioritise defensive nodes first then spec into damage, as staying in Reaper Form is more important early on. Jesus Christ dude.
You’re so desperate to be right about this, so you weasel your way into it. Calling me a power hungry player too, when it’s not the case. You’re kinda sad my guy. I was right from the get-go, you’re just here for attention and to be contrarian, arguing about things you have no clue about. Just go away man. Either learn the build so you know what you’re talking about so you can contribute with something useful, cos this aint it pal.
The devs view on thematics and why they would be resistant to adding an “on hit” effect to an “on kill” passive us irrelevant? That sounds like sour grapes dressed up with some justification (“your question was framed to guve the answer you wanted”) that implies Mike is unable to read a question and come up with a decent answer.
It would have been nice to provide a screenshot of the question and answer for those without access to discord (too many hours at work, not sure whether i can be arsed to install it on my phone).
I didn’t say that. You’re also being a little dishonest. If you were gonna quote me on this, quote the whole thing.
Mike came up with an answer adequate to the way that guy framed the question. Look, I get you want to white knight your friend here, but he was making a leading question in a very biased manner, cos I can tell when I click Macknum’s profile, you’re his biggest fan.
The question and answer was already posted here by someone else. Macknum copy/pasted just part of Mike’s answer, leaving out his question. I wonder why. A screenshot would be difficult since it’s very busy on Discord chat. From the question to the answer there’s a lot of messages in between. But in case you missed it, here it is.
Not only did he asked about Dark Retribution, a Necro passive talent along with Harvested Legions to benefit from Unholy Trinity without going into minion skills or stats. Mike’s answer is directly talking to this interaction. As you can see from his answer, he’s talking about Dark Retribution is only on a Necro’s own minion’s death and because of that doubts that Vanguards would have on hit vs bosses. See, he never really mentions my issue in proper context, leads the question to get the answer he wanted.
I’ll reinstate my issue here again in case you’re too blinded with aiding your pal here:
Skeleton Vanguards die too fast vs bosses and currently there’s no mechanic to respawn them when fighting a boss to benefit from Unholy Trinity. I made a suggestion that maybe could add a on hit effect vs bosses to trigger Harvested Legion, but ultimately I don’t care what method is employed, I am just asking for a way to replenish Vanguards when fighting bosses with the build I’m using.
Everything else is just noise and clashing egos with a big dishonest elitist gatekeeper.
Edit: Also, it’s funny Macknum also didn’t mention the entire answer from Mike, and just cherry picked what he wanted to emphasise his point, another weaselly tactic. Especially since Mike at the end of his question assured me that this interaction I’m having might have an alternative, which is exactly what I was asking for. Rather than block quoting it I’ll just copy/paste the part I am referring too: I think it would be more likely to add a new effect that triggered off both so we still have some exclusive “on kill” nodes as that should be the emphasis. If Macknum was actually here to help the conversation he would have mentioned this, but all he wants is to reinforce his ego and need for attention.
I know, you implied it. That means it was suggested but not directly expressed. Hence my view on your comment was not unreasonable. Your comment:
Does, IMO, very heavily imply that you are disregarding Mike’s answer (stated) because you feel Macknum asked a leading question (stated though since I can’t see a sceeengrab of the question and answer I have no idea if this is rwasonable or not) to get the answer he wanted (which is not uncommon, we’ve all done it). Then you go on to have a go at him for quite a bit of the rest of your post because you’re frustrated & lashing out (again, it’s a bit shitty but we’ve all done it).
Not really, you’ve seen a few trees and decided youre in a forest. If you’ve seen some of our interactions then you’d be aware that we often don’t see eye to eye.
You’d also notice that he’s not a native English speaker so perhaps any misframing of his questions or comments might be down to that rather than malice?
If you checked my activity, you’d see that he’s not even close to being in my top 6. You know the phrase about statistics never lying? Numbers don’t always tell you what you think they’re telling you, especially about non-numeric thongs (@vapourfire damnit!).
It must have been in the ~26 odd posts that I kinda skimmed over/ignored 'cause yesterday was a long day & I couldn’t be arsed. Though I see that the discussion hasn’t evolved or moved on…
Thank you for posting the full q&a.
While his question was definitely “partisan”, IMO it’s irrelevant, Mike answered it as I’d expect him to, giving the devs view on the thematics of the Acolyte and why “on kill” effects are more of a thing for that class than “on hit”.
I’m sorry you didn’t entirely get the answer you wanted, that’s always disappointing. Macknum asking about other nodes doesn’t matter because Mike’s answer still applies to Harvested Legion - it is an on kill effect because that is the theme of the Acolyte. They may potentially add on hit effects to new nodes.
Mike is clearly aware of the distinction between the two nodes and is talking about both.
Yes. He said on hit effects would be more likely on new nodes, but on kill needs to remain to fit the theme.
What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
I have certain proclivities, they aren’t to everyone’s taste (or anyone’s?). I can also be an argumentative pedantic c##t from time to time.
I didn’t imply Mike is unable to answer questions in a proper manner. I stated that the answer is irrelevant because the question was not faithful to the issue at hand. If the question isn’t proper, the answer, no matter how clear and concise it was is irrelevant to the real problem put into debate.
Yes, I admit I am being quite hostile here towards Macknum, but I react to how I’m treated. If you’re respectful, I am too. If you’re being dishonest, then I’m not going to be respectful cos dishonesty is disrespectful and an insult to my intelligence.
Fair, and I apologise for the accusation. It just seemed to me that way. I didn’t look on your profile, I just looked at his.
I did notice it. Me too. Although English is my first language, I was forced to move out to other countries for longer times, where other languages became more common to me. I currently speak 3 languages fluently and 2 languages at a basic level. However, I don’t see that language barriers are the reason for misstatements and the dishonesty being displayed by Macknum here. While other people commenting here seemed to truly want to contribute and help towards the debate of the issue at hand, Macknum just wants to be right on a topic he’s ignorant about. Language isn’t the issue here, his ego is.
Yes, I assumed it. That’s why I quoted it for your convenience and save you the trouble on back tracking multiple filler posts on this thread.
It’s irrelevant because the question was framed in a way that;
Implies it’s an interaction towards Necromancers and not Lich
Doesn’t address the issue I’m putting forward here
I’ll elaborate.
The issue isn’t that Harvested Legion doesn’t have a on hit vs bosses. The issue is having no control on fulfilling Unholy Trinity while bossing. As I stated multiple times, I don’t care what the mechanic is, I just asked for a way to trigger Vanguard spawns on boss fights and merely suggested that Harvested Legion could proc on hit vs bosses as in my view it would be the easiest change and didn’t want to completely revolutionize Liches skills and passives. I even admitted there could be better solutions and simply argued against the logic Macknum was using, like it’s working as intended because the talent exists like this since it was implemented. I only challenged this point of view which ended up derailing the whole purpose of this post because it turned the focus of the discussion to should Harvested Vanguards be proc on hit vs bosses when that’s just a minor part of what I’m trying to say here.
He is, but he’s talking about it in the context of a Necromancer passive with Harvested Legion.
That’s fine. Nothing foreign to me. It’s understandable as I am being one here as well. As long as it’s an honest discussion, anything is game.
Do you agree that Harvested Vanguards exists as an alternative to Summon Skeletons (or any other minion skills)?
If so, do you agree that there should be ways to proc Vanguard spawns on bosses which do not exist in the current build?
And finally, would the class be more or less enjoyable if there was a mechanic that allowed to spawn Vanguards while fighting bosses as an alternative to minion summon skills?
I think these are more key to what I started here than if Harvested Vanguards should have proc on hit vs bosses.
at least from Mikes statement on Discord it seems so. It can’t even be a key mechanic because it isn’t implemented to work this way at all. Calling something a key mechanic without it even be a mechanic at all is a bit far fetched for me.
