Problem with Lich's Skeleton Vanguard

The 150% damage buff for Unholy Trinity is balanced against the fact that Bosses can wipe them pretty easily.

If the downsides are reduced then the bonus has to be reduced or it becomes an automatic I win button.

There is room for some creativity here as those who have suggested some work arounds.

Bone Curse can be specced with Entreat the Damned to double Vanguard Chances to 20% (1 in 5). Bosses usually spawn adds that you can use to resummon.

Gear up with some Minion health on some items and idolz.

Put some passives into Minion Health.

The skill has been setup this way intentionally, it’s up to you as the player to work around it or to choose not to use it.

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Probably not in the way you mean it, no.

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Hey I read your post and completely agree. the Trinity node is complete garbage and no one wants to entertain the thought of keeping disposable minions alive on a non minion build in high tier content. this is classic poor game design and making you jump through stupid efficiency hoops for more damage. The node just shouldnt exist its like wilfully making your players like drug addicts chasing a damage high they need and having to ruin their life (build) just to attempt to achieve it, its horrible design for someone like me who ‘could always be doing more damage if i was doing xx’ also a sane human would just try automate it…then again whats the point

Personally I have played this build and I just autocasted transplant to create those worthless minions on teleport. because they died immediately I had to spam transplant at all times, into walls, mobs, death whatever as I needed THREE shit minions alive always

My solution is to quit the build completely and play one of the other 2-3 builds in the game that arent completely unfun to play…like…um totems.

Ah yes holding the higher damage node hostage behind the worst quality of life there is. Bravo, applaud the design.

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Hey man. Thank you for taking the time to read it.

Yeah, it’s something I never understood either. It’s just a very poorly designed node and very uninteresting. However, it’s a double edge sword, this build actually needs this node, especially for bossing. Without UT, bossing with this build is sweaty, unfun and mainly a rough experience cos HS does nothing to the bosses, and well, BC+SF does even less apart from draining your entire mana leaving you with a lot of SD downtime.

As I said before, even my Shadow Dagger BD kills bosses faster and this is a AoE build, while this Lich build was supposed to be a single target build, just makes no sense.

The problem here is that I really like the way this build works in general, it’s just this interaction that isn’t fun. I get it, builds can’t have everything, but logically it makes no sense. The downside to this build is AoE isn’t strong, that should be enough of a drawback, and some people here just don’t understand this.

I tried this and it’s just not viable.

Yeah, I think I’m just going to make another Lich to try other builds and keep the current one I have for later since the devs did answer to this on Discord and said that right now they are focusing on other things but could consider adding other nodes with on hit vs bosses effects. And since I already invested a ton on the gear, I’ll just make another Lich.

All I did here was point out a major flaw in a particular build and the problems with it, and made a minor suggestion to make it work better, but some people just love gatekeeping with this elitist line of thought, especially when they prove to not have any knowledge of this build or how Liches work in general, it gets frustrating asf.

Currently, I’m at the point of being drained off interest for the game. I get it, it’s still under development, and it’s the only reason I haven’t regretted buying it, as I did so with the notion that it would be broken, buggy and janky since it’s an early access beta. But the builds that interest me are either broken or have an aspect of the build that is unfun.

For example, I wanted to main Bladedancer. Dual dagger wielding assassin builds are my favourite archetype in RPG’s. But BD’s Shift is broken to a point of frustration where I find myself yelling ‘MOOOOOOVE’ at the screen since it gets stuck on animation quite often. Majority of my deaths on her was precisely because of this. If I die cos I stood on something and it was my fault, fine. It sucks but it was essentially my fault and it’s just an incentive to get better and do better. But when you’re dying to something that isn’t your fault, and it happens time and time again, it just makes me not want to play it. I also really dislike the idea that a Shadow Dagger BD has to play with a shield for maximum efficiency, something feels off having an assassin wielding a shield. It’s like making a melee warrior fight with a wand, it makes very little sense thematically.

The other builds I enjoy playing also have very unfun downsides. Druids have a very janky movement skill, and being melee is very punished in this game, especially VS Lagon where the hit box is so small. Paladins suffer the same movement issues. Channelling movement skills feels bad in general. The maps aren’t designed for them with narrow corridors, non linear paths and they stop working when you hit stairs or if the terrain changes altitude. Sometimes they don’t work at all, as I press the button (Q for me) and it casts the ability and stops instantly putting it on CD and clearly there wasn’t any obstacle nor changes of altitude on the terrain.

Again and again I keep hitting these walls that breeds more frustration than making it fun, so I’m starting to consider leaving this game on the back seat and return once it’s in a better state. I’ll try again with a different Lich build cos I do enjoy the archetype, but time will tell.

I understand, I felt similar over the time ive played. Ive owned the game for years and played on/off for a few months at a time but became more disinterested due to draining playstyles/bugs/nerfs/no updates to certain skills and largely as well threads like this get brigaded as you said by people who dont play the build

The biggest issue is not only do we have only a small subset of skills those skill platystyles are semi-forced by the developer akin to Diablo 3 style of “if you want to do 400% more damage you have to do this xx” which is the developer telling you how to play, not only that the game is robust in its set of problems but not in its set of solutions so you have to build certain way to achieve even close to ‘maximum efficiency’

Ive said it before - I wont play any build in LE that requires you to manage Mana as I cannot stand managing it and I view as a problem to be solved by some means

A few weeks ago I tried a Shaman Totem Shatter build, where you Upheaval your Thorn Totems which explode doing physical spell damage, the idea is to just spam Upheaval to shatter/recreate more on a loop however you cant do this, you run out of Mana

So I added in Swipe, still not enough, Added in Swipe companion use on cooldown;Spriggan companion to use their ability to give 15 mana a second, still not enough, get every Mana regen passive, mana regen on belt and amulet, STILL NOT ENOUGH even with a slow Staff, at this point I just went back to Thorn Totems, a skill costing 25-30 rage a cast but completely carried by a single node in Spriggan which solves all your rage issues - if that node didnt exist this build wouldnt work either

Messing around today with Volatile Zombies and noticed that Shepherd of Thralls summons a Skeleton Warrior at the zombies Death so it’s a 100% guaranteed method of getting 3 minions.

Naming isn’t consistent, Description call it a Vanguard, but the detail says Warrior.

Then grab the Dreadful Horde Node and put 2 points into it and you will summon 3 Zombies with one cast.

Easy Peasy way to get 3 minions.

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I already use this, as mentioned initially. The problem is that add phases aren’t really enough in 99% of the fights that have adds. The only exception is the emperor dragon boss since he has adds mostly all the time. And even on that fight, having a way to upkeep my 3 Vanguards, I don’t instantly kill the boss. I still have to dodge shit, play smart and follow mechanics while worrying about respawning them. It’s not a automatic win like you suggest.

No, not really. For the few seconds my Vanguards are up, damage is no where near OP levels.

I literally can’t gear into minion health. The little I can spare isn’t enough to keep them alive.

You mean the passive? Regardless, no one here knows if the interaction between UT and HL is working as intended, you just assume it is. The devs already mentioned that they might add some on hit vs bosses nodes but it’s not their focus right now. Watching dev streams looks like they’re focusing on ladder and the classes that haven’t been released yet.

Right. Or just use Summon Minions. I don’t think you understand. Changing to 1 summon skill, whether be skellies or zombies means the entire build changes, it no longer will be the same build. By changing a spell, you will need to spec HS into being your AoE clear skill, and this build is specced to having HS as single target while Bone Curse + Soul Feast is for AoE clear. Soul Feast doesn’t work without Bone Curse, Bone Curse does no damage on its own.

The other variation of this build is to use Summon Skeletons, HS for AoE and channelled Wandering Spirits for single target. However, in multiplayer, WS channelling skill gets you stuck in animation, and having dealt with this kind of bug with my Bladedancer, I wanted to save having frustrating moments where you’re stuck and have to move or die.

Some here argue that Harvested Legion isn’t an alternative to minion skills, but I beg to differ. It would be highly boring if both Lich and Necro have to use minion skills if you’re using HS. Having a way to respawn Vanguards on boss fights just gives more versatility to builds, making the game more interesting and it would be a minor change compared to other alternatives. However, Mike has already mentioned that alternatives might happen, and just them considering it, is enough for me. If it doesn’t change, and animation stuck gets fixed, I’m fine with using the other version I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph above. So really, debating about it doesn’t really matter anymore. However, I would prefer the game to have more unique builds, that’s my opinion.

Ive been asking for Aura of Decay buffs for a long time, EHG responds by nerfing it this last patch

The tree hasnt changed in 3 years at all

You do realise their solution to HS will just be to remove the node entirely and give you probably nothing of value in return, theres some questionable balancing going on

Whoever greenlit that Sorc node (cant remember right now) and the Swipe node that now allows you to use Companion skills on a 2s cooldown with NO MANA cost, which also doesnt interfere with Companion abilities which can also be reduced with CDR down to 1.5 seconds doesnt make sense to me since Companion skills cost 30 mana, you would need 25 mana/s to spam it but no you can spam it for free and 100% heals your minion, removing any need for minion recovery

The node itself is fantastic and now all these Solo Beastmaster builds CAN exist that didnt prior, its only a matter of time before EHG adds a mana cost and its probably too weak to build around

Dont you wish you had that node?

Oh I’m sorta new here. I have 205 hours into the game.

I don’t know what their M.O. is, all I saw was Mike’s response to someone’s (very dishonest) question and in the middle of the answer Mike said that they might add nodes that do both, meaning both proc on kill and proc on hit vs bosses. For now that’s enough for me. It’s still beta so I don’t really expect some things to change for a while since the focus is elsewhere. They’ll get around it eventually, if not, then I’ll get upset. But it’s still not the time to.

I honestly don’t know. I never played Beastmaster nor Sorceror. I don’t like to comment on builds I’m ignorant about. Maybe I’ll form an opinion after I’ve played them, but to be frank, BM and Sorc are the least attractive classes for me. I don’t like pet builds in general and I absolutely hate the Mage/Sorceror archetype.

Yesterday I was looking at new builds to play. And from the builds I could see in either maxroll or lastepochtools, neither really got my attention. A lot of Melee close range builds which after the abysmal experience I had with Swipe Bear, melee builds are in a terrible place. Players push bosses around, some bosses (cough cough Lagon) are still extremely janky and bugged with the smallest hit box ever, you’re forced to stand on shit cos bosses drop pools of whatever damage in melee range also. Melee is in a rough place, and unless you’re geared up near perfectly, there’s little you can do in these situations. I hope they find some time to rethink melee interactions cos being put in the situation where you can’t hit the boss cos you’ll die to some shit while ranged just sit back and nuke the boss isn’t ideal for the game.

Ive owned the game since 0.72b which is 3.5 years, the Lich hasnt been changed barely at all in over a year in any meaningful way, now that MP has released they have about 40 other problems which is way more important

Melee is in a rough spot in this game now because you are so weak, you arent squishy but because all these builds dont do explosive damage like other melee types in games you tend to stand in bosses face for far too long trying to do as much dmg as possible

Yeah you missed out on some nice builds which have been nerfed into ‘no thanks’ builds. Rogue had infinite Shadow Cascade (might still work) and 100% proc on hit Shadow Daggers

this is my old Bladedancer from over 2 years ago doing Cascade on everyones favourite boss

Shadow Daggers was the most fun character to build in LE, you could stack ‘Shadow Dagger effect’ so once you hit certain breakpoints your Shadow Daggers popped in as low as one hit doing tremendous damage instead of 4 hits, but you could incrementally gear into lower hits by getting better gear/idols, true minmaxing going on there. EHG gutted that behaviour :slight_smile:

I also had a Shield Charge ignite Forge Guard build on offline mode. I tried to recreate the character and because of Desynchronised Charge (the node that teleports you right back) its unplayable even with 56 ping as the game cant handle you bouncing around like crazy. I went and tested it offline and works fine

The only ‘true melee’ skill I had any success with was Rive on a Voidknight but personally I get bored of melee if I cannot get really really high attack speed. Last real Melee build I played was in PoE/Torchlight Infinite where both builds I was able to get 7-9 attacks per second. feels amazing to play those builds but the only thing close in this game is actually a Beastmaster using Upheaval and Frenzy Totem and getting every single attack speed increase you can

Also heres a Swipe Bear build, ive looked at this guy streaming occasionally/other videos and he is legit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlVUJiAshZg

Shadow Dagger was complete busted and OP af and was nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again. Right now it looks like it might be overnerfed but then again if Corruption 300 is the intended endgame difficulty it’s still OP.
It’s never fun when a overperforming skill you’ve used to trolololol the game is nerfed but then again it’s better for the game.
EHG did a lot of patches where I thought “WTAF? Are you guys drunk or did someone spiked your food with fun stuff?” but in the end everything worked out.

Don’t forget! It could be worse you could be a Shaman fan :smiley: .

Actually had other builds perform better such as Abomination and even Decay Lich, also it wasnt a ‘nerf’ as such more as in nobody wants to deal 90% less damage 75% of the time could of just nerfed Shadow Dagger and allowed higher proc rates

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEnXrYDv6Fk - definitely Shaman enjoyer.

Balancing will be an issue for a very long time. The patches got better but EHG still has a long way to go untill they are anywhere near a half decent balance.

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