Problem with Lich's Skeleton Vanguard

[BLVCKSHVDE]

@Macknum

You want a passive interaction changed that was NEVER meant to be the way you want it magicly trasnfered to because it fits your style. To be clear we need some Dev input here if this was a year long oversight and they want to change this or if anything is working as intended

This is why I say you’re being contrarian just for the sake of argument. What is it, either you’re sure it was never meant to be the way I’m asking, or you need a devs input to clarify.

@Macknum

Everything here boils down to “me not having 150% dmg but me want 150% dmg”.

Strawman argument, this isn’t what it’s about. Harvested Legion talent exists for a very specific reason. It’s so Lich’s can get the buff from Unholy Trinity without the need for Summon Skeletons which is more of a Necro skill. The talent works fine on mapping, but is useless on bosses. This is just plain bad design. The devs knows this because with other classes they have added hit v bosses as a way to proc buffs, but for some reason didn’t add for Harvested Legion. Unholy Trinity exists to balance damage because of Lich’s need for defensive stats to maintain Reaper Form. It’s ‘not me want’, it’s ‘Lich need’.

@Macknum

a strong skill node even stronger.

Mate, this node isn’t that strong on Lich. Necro’s abuse this far more than Lich’s. Lich essentially build 75% defensive stats, 25% offensive stats. The 150% multi is to balance the need for defensive stats. “oh but just build more offensive stats then” - no, in order to stay longer in Repear Form, you need stats like Health, Leech, Armor, Crit Avoidance and Mana/Mana Regen.

@Macknum

I can use your build, throw something out and have the 150% dmg skill 24/7.

I can too, while mapping. I can’t vs bosses. And if you’re talking about using Summon Skeleton, then you are not using my build. Something you seem to struggle to understand. Show me a screenshot of your Lich where you made this possible, and then I can see you’re not using same build as I am.

@Macknum

Maybe a Dev is reading this and will answer to it because I don’t think we could agree on:

“Yes it would be nive to have a on boss hit procc but to be real that would be OP if the chance isn’t low enough to not make it not OP.”

Again, misstatement of what I’m trying to say. It’s not that it would be nice, and it’s not that it would make it OP to have it proc on hit v bosses. Again, you don’t understand what’s being argued here so you toss a bunch of strawman for the sake of being contrarian. The argument here is that Harvested Legion becomes useless when fighting a boss. And it shouldn’t be that way. And again, devs knows this because with other classes with similar mechanics, they have proc on hit v bosses.

@Macknum

So why change stuff then at all if you do so?

Because 1) My build ceases to work, forcing me to fight at a nerfed state. 2) it takes triple or quadruple the time it would take vs if I had HL working on hit v bosses. 3) no other classes that have similar mechanics suffer cos they have proc on hit v bosses.

@Macknum

That passive is like this since it existed.

Such a L take. Just because that’s how it works since it existed doesn’t mean it doesn’t have better ways it could work or that the devs just overlooked it. Developing a game like this isn’t easy, they could be focused on other shit and didn’t notice this. Things get overlooked, sometimes through the most scrutinised processes, look at Hollywood films for example, with Gladiator having one of their characters wearing a gold Rolex on film, or other medieval time films with airplanes flying in the background sky. We are all human at the end of the day, and some things gets overlooked. Me pointing it out doesn’t mean I just want things my way. I’m simply making a suggestion.

@Macknum

so it works like intended.

Again, you don’t know this. Neither do I. I’m just making a suggestion. You on the other hand only strawman your way into my post and offer nothing of value other than talking shit just for giggles.

@Macknum

hungering strike always needs a 150% dmg modifier that is fuled by 2 passive points then you get what you want. I somehow doubt this will happen.

This just shows how little you know about what you’re talking about. First, it’s Hungering Souls, not Hungering Strikes. Second, HS doesn’t get any 150% damage ‘modifier’ (sic). You go on and on, pretending you know what is being discussed, but turns out you don’t know anything and just argue for the sake of it.

First of all, I’m talking about a Lich passive. It’s called Harvested Legion. Harvested Legion makes it so it spawns 1 Skeleton Vanguard on kill at a 10% proc rate and gives them 60% increased health, limiting the maximum Vanguards to 3 at any single time. There’s no damage modifiers here at all. The other talent I’m talking about is called Unholy Trinity which is a talent in the Hungering Souls skill tree which gives you a 150% damage multiplier when you have exactly 3 minions active. Not 1, not 2, not 4. It’s 3. Something that Lich’s rely heavily on to do consistent damage.

I’m asking for a minor change to Harvested Legion, to make it proc on hit vs bosses so that this specific mechanic can be met while fighting a boss, the same way it’s met when mapping and fighting mobs. There’s nothing OP about this change.

@Macknum

Just out of pure intrest… how low should the on boss hit chance be?

I already answered this question, which proves to me you don’t really read what you’re replying to.

@Macknum

Don’t forget that it should suite all skills so not to much proccs on Marrow Shards machine gun builds and not to little on Harvest what has the lowest speed of all skills.

What are you talking about man? Holy Christ dude. The change is for a Lich passive my guy. Talking to you is like hitting my face against a proverbial brick wall. It doesn’t matter what ability you’re hitting the boss with is. Whether it’s Marrow Shard or Hungering Souls, because the change I’m suggesting isn’t for a SKILL.

Anyway, I’m done arguing with you. You offer no substance, you don’t read things properly, you strawman your way through the entire thing, you don’t understand what you’re talking about. It’s a waste of time talking to people like you, cos you’re not here to offer anything of value. You sit there and pretend you’re some kind of expert in the game when you don’t know shit. Just move along and go boost your ego somewhere else.

[BLVCKSHVDE]

@XLVI_carpo

If you don’t have a solution, just skip the thread. But this kind of gatekeeping is not very helpful.

Very well said. 100%

[darkdeal]

@Bakageyama

It would make the passive more in line with on kill effects in the game

Sigils of Hope - Last Wish
Fury Leap - Aspect of the Mantis
Fury Leap - Regain Stamina
Maelstrom - Gathering Storm
Druid - Toxic Reach
Void Knight - Dark Maw
Void Knight - Rot Ripples
Void Knight - Essence of the End

Just to name a few.

There are 20+ items/affixes that have “on kill” effects that don’t do the same for “on hit on bosses”.

So maybe what you consider “in line” isn’t what others see.

[XLVI_carpo]

There are also tons of affixes and passives and skillnodes that have effect on hit. So what does your list proove?

What’s your point exactly? Do you like on kill effects? Do you think they are valuable? How many of your builds rely on on kill effects? And how satisfying does it feel for you to do a bossfight with these?

[XLVI_carpo]

@Macknum

Why should I? The OP already said he can kill stuff without the node active so there is no issue and only the wish for more power in the most easy way possible.

So in other words “you don’t know”. Can you give some example of how to use the passive node other than for HS? Can you name any other skill interaction? What do you use the passive for on your Lich builds?

Why is there no issue? Because you don’t see one? Because you don’t play Lich and if you do, you dont use the node? Great feedback.

There are still many broken Skillnodes that just dont work in 0.9. But I guess we can just keep it that way because people can still kill stuff…

@Macknum

Reading the forums these days and people who get salty about everything that is an opposing opinion.

No. You don’t have an opposite opinion. Opposite opinion would be if you think that the passive skill already is working great. And you would backup this with examples of how you use it. Just saying “don’t use it as you don’t need it” isn’t a counterargument.

You are derailing the topic and not discussing on it.

[BLVCKSHVDE]

@darkdeal

Sigils of Hope - Last Wish

While SoH procs on kill, you can manually cast this. Using SoH almost always means you specced into it. I am no Sentinel expert, but I do have a lvl 85 Smite Hammerdin.

Also, SoH isn’t a main mechanic to builds I’ve seen. Either way, you can manually cast SoH while Vanguards you can’t.

@darkdeal

Void Knight - Dark Maw
Void Knight - Rot Ripples
Void Knight - Essence of the End

I can’t speak to Void Knights, as I don’t have one.

@darkdeal

Maelstrom - Gathering Storm

I have a LVL 69 Swipe Wearbear, again no expert but Maelstrom has alternatives. For example:

• Werebear Form - Ursine Form which casts Maelstrom on hit

• Warcry - Whirlpool which gives you 4 stacks of Maelstrom just by using Warcry.

If you chose to build Spriggan Form, you have:

• Spriggan Form - Spirit Vortex which casts Maelstrom whenever you directly cast Spirit Thorns

• Spriggan Form - Glacial Grove which casts Maelstrom when you directly cast Thorn Shield.

As a Swarmblade you get:

• Swarmblade Form - Water Strider which casts Maelstrom when you dive.

As a Shaman:

Shaman Passives - Swirling Maelstrom, which casts Maelstrom when you get hit.

Also, you can always self cast Maelstrom.

@darkdeal

Fury Leap - Aspect of the Mantis
Fury Leap - Regain Stamina

• Fury Leap - Aspect of the Mantis is a CD reset on kill, hardly a build dependant talent.

• Fury Leap - Regain Stamina, yet another CD reset on kill, hardly a build dependant talent.

@darkdeal

There are 20+ items/affixes that have “on kill” effects that don’t do the same for “on hit on bosses”.

There are also a bunch of items that have affixes that have on hit effects, what’s your point? My Smite Hammerdin relies a lot on Sentinel Idols that casts Smite on hit.

The examples you gave are weak. (apart from Void Knight cos I never built one so I rather not comment on things I am not informed about). Most of these examples have alternatives built in builds, and also can be self casted without sacrificing a skill specialization slot or a action bar slot or are just CD resets that doesn’t directly influence how a build performs. There are no alternatives to Harvested Vanguards that doesn’t require sacrificing the entire identity of your build and there’s no way to cast Harvested Vanguards yourself. Your point is kinda moot my guy.

[Macknum]

edit I asked in the Discord and wait for an answer there, untill then I’ve nothing else to say so have fun ^^

@BLVCKSHVDE

What is it, either you’re sure it was never meant to be the way I’m asking, or you need a devs input to clarify.

What I said the whole time. The whole debate makes no sense if not a Dev says something. Untill then I only know the passive was like this since it exeistence. So everything else thate is to say about this topic ist senseless because there are people who want powercreep and there are people who don’t want powercreep.

@BLVCKSHVDE

While SoH procs on kill, you can manually cast this [shorten the whole post to only this]

All you do here is talkind SKILL interaction. You want 2 passive points to make for the “Summon Skeleton” skill and that’s why I’m opposed to it. If you loose arround passive points worth not having to skill into Summon Skeleton I’ll be fine with it.

I looked at every class and I was unable to find a “Summon whatever minion” on hi/boss hit in any skilltree . There is surely Dev input needed if they want to change every passive tree of each class to make things fair.

[BLVCKSHVDE]

Man, you’re annoying asf, sorry to say this. It’s like we’re on a loop arguing the same points over and over again. There’s no going anywhere productive when discussing anything with you. You misunderstand the point of my suggestion, and you simply have no idea what you’re talking about, especially when you’re talking about power creep. Nowhere in my suggestion does it breed power creep.

@BLVCKSHVDE

Show me a screenshot of your Lich where you made this possible, and then I can see you’re not using same build as I am.

Still waiting on that screenshot.

---

I know what you want.

@Macknum

There is surely Dev input needed

You just want attention. Go away please. Thanks.

[darkdeal]

@BLVCKSHVDE

There are also a bunch of items that have affixes that have on hit effects, what’s your point?

Ah, yes. Good ol’ fallacious arguments. Try not moving the goalposts.

This discussion is not about generic “on hit” effects. It is about “on kill” effects having an option to be “on hit on boss/rare”.

My point was clear. The ability to make an “on kill” effect work “on hit on boss/rare” ISN’T “in line” with other “on kill” effects.

There are a few that have it but have to be further specced into it. The Circle of Life > Dragon Slayer nodes for Beastmaster come to mind.

@BLVCKSHVDE

While SoH procs on kill, you can manually cast this.

As you can manually cast any other summon. You just want the benefits without having to spec into a skill.

Honestly, the Death Seal/Reaper Form Lich is one of the strongest builds in the game already,. Complaining that you want it to be stronger seems silly.

[Macknum]

@darkdeal

There are a few that have it but have to be further specced into it. The Circle of Life > Dragon Slayer nodes for Beastmaster come to mind.

I’m lost what are you talking about? Can’t find the mentioned in the passive tree. is this a skill interaction? If so yeah sure there are skill interaction that work on kill as well as on hit rare/boss. The whole thread here is about passive tree options on rare/boss hit.

People just think to get a skill specialisation with little investment for 2 passive tree points is a good and balanced thing. I don’t think so ^^.

Mike answered on Discord so I’ve nothing to add here and leave people to their theorycrafting

[darkdeal]

It’s the first 2 nodes past the middle for the Aspect of the Shark stuff.

I agree with you in this thread.

[Macknum]

Ah there an aspect procc yeah.

Not everything in my post was aimed at you it’s just meh to multireply/quote and I do everything in one post. Then again right now the whole thing is done for me anyways untill a dev writes something in here that might spark my intrest again.

So far it’s just…well… people are theorycrafting and wish change to a passive tree interaction they seem not good enough.

[BLVCKSHVDE]

@darkdeal

Ah, yes. Good ol’ fallacious arguments. Try not moving the goalposts.

Moving what goalposts mate? You chose to answer these 2 minor points? Okay man. What about everything else I replied to that demolishes your arguments? No mention huh? Convenient. And I’m being fallacious? Good grief.

@darkdeal

This discussion is not about generic “on hit” effects. It is about “on kill” effects having an option to be “on hit on boss/rare”.

No. That’s not what the discussion is about. I created this post, I know what’s it about. It’s a suggestion to add on hit vs bosses on a passive point that as of now only procs on kill so that it works on bosses. An effect that is already in the game, and that’s what I’m referring to. Stuff like this:

Which is something you get can with your first 4 points into Werebear Form. So this point you’re trying to make:

@darkdeal

There are a few that have it but have to be further specced into it.

Is yet another attempt at selective cherry picking arguments of yours.

@darkdeal

As you can manually cast any other summon. You just want the benefits without having to spec into a skill.

You don’t get it do you? SoH is normally being specced into every Sentinel build. My Smite Hammerdin has it on its bar even though I never had the need to cast it. It’s already part of most Sentinel builds. Go see for yourself. Jesus Christ dude. While Summon Skeleton isn’t present in any of the Lich’s builds. There’s a reason Harvested Legion exists, it’s to discard the need to play with Summon Skeleton. There’s also a reason the cap of Harvested Legion is 3.

@darkdeal

Honestly, the Death Seal/Reaper Form Lich is one of the strongest builds in the game already,. Complaining that you want it to be stronger seems silly.

It’s not about it being stronger. Holy f’ing Christ dude. It’s about a key mechanic of the build not working in bosses. It’s really hard for you to understand this, isn’t it?

All you want to do is to derail the conversation. Good job.

[SolidMetalKnight]

I would not be opposed to Lich being able to make their vanguards immortal / inviolable. As long as vanguard damage is not insane or game breaking, there’s no reason for Lich to need to resummon them gameplay-wise. It getting to be the only sub-class that gets to make some of its minions invincible makes sense in-context (considering the player is literally a Lich) and would be a neat unique thing for them to have. This would also make managing agro against regular enemies a little easier as well, which wouldn’t be a negative change in my view.

[BLVCKSHVDE]

Yeah, Vanguards do neglectable damage, and they are essentially wet noodles, even with the 60% Health boost they get from Harvested Legion (the passive that spawns them).

These other people act like I’m asking for something that would break the game, but essentially end up showing they either never played the build I’m using, never played lich, or are here only to derail the conversation.

Typical day on the internet.

[SolidMetalKnight]

Typically the conversations around here are pretty productive. I think darkdeal’s main issue is just that they care more about game balance probably than you or I do. I don’t doubt making this buff able to be maintained would be a buff to Lich in general, but considering that it’s never activated against bosses, (and in empowered monolith it would almost never be up against regular enemies either) the buff is more or less useless. I care more about the mechanics in the game actually making sense and being fun than “balance.” Since this is not a hardcore PVP game, I don’t really care if anything is balanced, as long as it’s fun and works with the context of the setting / characters.

The one problem with what I’m proposing here is of course, the buff then would never go away so you’re not really having to juggle or maintain it in any way. Maybe the answer to that would be to make it where vanguards die automatically after a couple of minutes and you have to cast a spell to get them back periodically. Something like that. Maybe spec it so that one of your Lich abilities has a 10% chance to summon a new one all the time and a 50% chance to summon a new one if you have fewer than 3. That way it’s always having to be thought about a little bit, as opposed to not at all. Something like that.

[BLVCKSHVDE]

Here’s the thing. Harvested Legion works perfectly fine on mapping. Mainly because I have a way to replenish my Vanguards. Having 3 Vanguards up is something I need to worry about on high corruption maps, but essentially it’s something I have control over. Like, oh, 1 Vanguard died, okay, I can just curse the next group of mobs and Soul Feast them down, eventually it will raise my max Vanguards to 3 again. The spawn rate is 10% per kill, so it’s not difficult, but it’s something I need to pay attention to.

The issue is, I have no control on this vs a boss. Imagine an aspect of your build that is vital for your damage that you cease to have control over, and it’s impossible to fulfil that aspect. That’s what’s happening here. I honestly don’t care how it would be changed, I simply made the suggestion that maybe Harvested Legion could also proc on hit vs bosses. There could be better solutions, who knows. However, the solution these guys are making are not only not viable, but their suggestion is fruit from not reading what I wrote and assuming things, or making strawman arguments.

[SolidMetalKnight]

I don’t have to imagine it very hard - I am currently running a 5-pet / Fury Leap Beastmaster and not only do they die on certain nodes in empowered echoes, but I die sometimes as well. A high-damage AOE or a pack of enemies that are positioned perfectly to smack me before I can react to them will clip me frequently. I just had to dump 17 passive points into defenses and up my movement speed significantly to mitigate this. Several of the Empowered bosses down my pets every cycle and I have to bring them back up to continue. Very frustrating considering I have a many more defense stats for minions on this character than on my Acolyte and they still get shredded at a rate the Acolyte’s do not.

[Bakageyama]

Just posting the question and dev response that was received. The question was poorly phrased so might not be of any real value here:

Macknum:
Is it an oversight the “Dark Retribution” Necromancer tree and the “Harvested Legiones” passive note in the Lich tree have no “Summon on Boss hit” mechanic? Some power hungry folks in the forums insist this should be a thing and I insist otherwise and would simply have an oppinion of a dev for hte topic if this should be a thing because a few people want to always benefit from “Unholy Trinity” in the Hungering souls skilltree without going for minion skills/stats at all. To me this sounds like a bad idea but some dev input would be great!

Mike:
It’s not something that is actively on our radar for change. I don’t want to comment on the hypothetical option of making that change or not. I assume those nodes are “on kill” effects. Triggering something when someone dies is really key for the acolyte in general and we are often reluctant to extend that to boss hit for thematic purposes. I think it would be more likely to add a new effect that triggered off both so we still have some exclusive “on kill” nodes as that should be the emphasis.

I just checked the nodes to be sure and dark retribution is only on your own minion’s death. The point of both of them thematically is that you’re using the body of the thing that just died to summon a vanguard. Thematically making these include “on boss hit” is just a mess. Extremely unlikely.

[Macknum]

@BLVCKSHVDE

It’s about a key mechanic of the build not working in bosses.

just one final question. You know the node is as it is and therefor can’t be a key mechanic because it was never intended and developed and published that way? I get why you want this node procc on bosses but you seem to be unhappy with this part of the game that was never intended like you want it to.

So simple queastion: You get this skill isn’t meant to work on hitting a boss? If yes then why do you call it a key mechanic when it isn’t?

Again you call this your build… my axe throwing sentinel isn’t working as I want to work because the key mechanic of my build is awefully weak. This isn’t a valid excuse to buff it from my point of view.

My wishfull thinking isn’t a reason to buff something no matter who rightfully I might be. On the other hand my argument isn’t invalidating yours I simply have a different angle on the topic and tomorrow a dev could pop up and say “Good idea we’ll implement it!”… who knows?

I just think you can’t call a passive skill that isn’t working like you want it a key mechanic when it’s totaly not because it isn’t even working the way you want it to. It would be nice, it would be convenient and it would increase the dmg overall and it would save skill slots and skillpoints. This is all well and fine but this is what would make it OP from my point of view and why I’m against it outside of “my build isn’t working like I want it to work so change it!” attitude.