I know, but a good pic is a good pic…
And yes, I do see the conflicting itemisation requirements the build is under. Have you thought about moving some passives out to get more % increased minion hp in the Necro tree, some of the nodes are low down.
I just think this might have been an oversight from the devs, and the reason why I placed this on the Feedback and Suggestions section and not Acolyte section. I honestly think that Harvested Legion should proc on hit vs bosses. The 10% works great on mapping as the Vanguards gets replenished quite often with how much I hit per second. This just becomes totally unviable vs a boss. Majority of bosses don’t even pump enough mobs for me to replenish 3 Vanguards on add phase either.
I agree, most skills like this also proc on boss hits
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Have you thought about the Purgatory and Ivory Court nodes in Transplant? They can enable 3 minions summoned on a low (4ish seconds?) cooldown.
I don’t spec into Transplant.
My 5 slots are for: Reaper Form, Death Seal, Bone Curse, Soul Feast and Hungering Souls.
Most of my Lich passive nodes are for survivability, leech and penetration (which is needed for higher corruption maps).
Thank you. That’s all I’m trying to say here.
I don’t see a problem here. There is a trash passive in use that spawns trash minions at a trash rate and it’s taken by choice over a minion skill because the limited action set in place don’t allow it.
I can’t see a problem here just an absense of willingness for a solution or acceptence of the game design. It’s like picking Axe Thrower in the Sentinel tree and telling everyone that it doesn’t do dmg or Divine Bolt or whatever realy bad passive skill some masteries offer.
Sure on one side it’s a flawed design because most of these passives are trash tier but then again if they are picked up by choice there is no problem and there was a descission made.
Do I miss something here? I have a headache and maybe got something wrong ^^.
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The passive isn’t trash… It’s pretty effective when mapping. I constantly have 3 Vanguards because I keep proccing it. 10% isn’t bad on maps. It’s only trash in the sense that it won’t proc vs bosses. Vanguards can be trash, that’s not the point of the build… That’s why Vanguards can be replaced easily, while mapping that is.
This build uses 6 skills already, 1 too many. The limitations isn’t just restricted to the action set of 5 skills. It’s also mana. Besides, I have to keep reminding people this isn’t a Necromancer. The devs chose to have something like the Unholy Trinity node to exist, and chose to have it buff an insane amount of damage. So much that the build needs this to do damage. While I would prefer Liches not using minions, it would be a big ask to change this. So I just suggested a minor change which falls in line with similar mechanics of other classes, which is to add a proc on hit vs bosses. I think that’s what you’re missing.
The thing is… almost all on kill % passives also have a proc rate on boss hit
So the passive is missing the general design that other passives of its type have - making it an oversight
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I’m not sure if this is an oversight. To me it looks like some passives are intationally bad compared to others. Then again having an endless army on hit is something I’m almost sure EHG never intended to do. How low do you want to make the procc chance against bosses?
On top of it untill @TheCurse made a vido guide on it most people and builds on youtube run the build the OP has problems with using summon skeletons for a reason. I realy don’t see the need of fixing something that isn’t broken.
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You’re limited to maximum of 3 Vanguards, it’s hardly a gang, let alone an army. Vanguards are useless. They don’t do damage, they can’t tank for shit. It might as well just be a 3 stack buff that has a visual representation on the map, that’s about it… I’m pretty sure this talent exists so Lich playstyle is different from Necromancers, making it unnecessary to manually summon minions, buff them and gear for them.
To answer your question, something from 5% to 10% is more than enough given you’re spamming spells all the time with increased cast speed.
You’re contradicting yourself though, in the midst of your contrarian argument. You admitted it has a flawed design, yet you say it’s not broken? It’s either or, can’t be both. It’s either flawed, or it’s not broken, better make up your mind, unless you’re just here to argue without adding any value to the conversation.
Besides, you make it sound like having 3 unbuffed Vanguards is somewhat OP, and it’s not.
Besides, the builds you see on Youtube are a different build to this one. Yes, they are quite similar, but very different at the same time. The ones that use Summon Skeleton are an AoE build, using Wandering Spirits and multiple projectile Hungering Souls. This is mainly a single target nuke boss killer build with some AoE capabilities for mapping.
Also, the builds you see are extremely bugged on multiplayer. The way these builds you mention do single target is to channel Wandering Spirits (through a talent), but it will get you stuck in animation. I wanted to main Bladedancer, but don’t because of the same issue, being stuck on animation when you Shift.
To say their builds are the same as mine, is essentially dishonest at worst, ignorant at best.
If you can resummon the vanguard as soon as it dies it’s a never ending story. There are more then enough builds that are able to get high APS or CPS so even with 5% chance on hit you might be able to always have 3 minions out there.
You want a skillmod to work with a shitty passive node instead of using a skillspecilisation for skeletons.
Flawed design was ment for every passive I mentioned because making something so bad it isn’t worthwhile to pick up is flawed design. Making Vanguards on hit vs bosses would be flawed design because all of the sudden they change a passive skill that was never intended to work in a specific way into an op skill that makes stuff possible like 150% dmg multi. You need a LOT of passive skillpoints to get this and you need a lot of skill points to get this and you try to enable a broken mechanic because they die?
You make a problem out of something that A: is already in use by others without a problem and B: you want a shortcut because somehow you can’t pull of what others do. I’m no native speaker but so far this whole post looks like a made up problem that exists if a certain skillcap isn’t reached and because of this a passive node should be changed. Do I get something wrong? That’s realy possible ^^ and therefor I ask.
Again, you’re missing the point that people here did initially but ended up understanding the point I’m making.
I’ll reinstate in just for your convenience.
The issue isn’t that they die. They die all the time while I’m mapping. I don’t care if they die because it’s not about survivability of the Vanguards in itself. The problem is having no mechanics to respawn the Vanguards when fighting a boss. I think the misunderstanding you’re having is that you’re viewing the Vanguards as Minions when they weren’t designed to be with this build. They are essentially a stacked buff.
Also, the issue you’re having is misunderstanding the subtle nuances and differences of the builds. I’ll explain.
While the builds you’re seeing are using Summon Skeleton, they have to drop Bone Curse and Soul Feast AoE. To drop BC and SF, they make HS their AoE skill by speccing it to shoot multiple projectiles and buff Wandering Spirits to help aid HS AoE, while making WS versatile enough to do single target for bossing with the channelling node. They’re different builds.
It’s not about making shortcuts, nor is it a skill barrier. It’s about making talents the devs designed work in a more coherent manner, in line with similar mechanics of other builds. 150% multiplier sounds OP asf, I get you. However, it’s a much needed buff for the Lich. Yes, Lich is a caster build at surface, but in reality it’s more of a tank that casts. Liches need to build for health and survivability to maintain Reaper Form, since RF drains your HP and Death Seal puts you on low life state plus the multiple talents and procs that poison you, damn you and making you lose health on kill. Meaning the 150% buff is a way the devs found to balance this, making it possible to build tanky and still do enough damage to solo bosses.
While you’re advocating for builds that are limited to 1 playstyle, I think it goes against the essential concept of the game which is to make multiple builds work. Unlike Diablo where the devs dictate what you should build with items, what dictate builds is how and what spells you end up specializing in. Having skills modify its behaviour depending on the route you chose on a particular tree. It’s great that 2 builds that use the same skill set can have different playstyles. Without noticing it, you’re asking for single minded builds “oh if you go hungering souls you have to build it this way” and I don’t think that’s what the devs intended, nor that’s what players want from LE.
And I forgot 1 last thing. I’m still killing the bosses. But it takes me a long ass time to do so, as I’m fighting a boss without one of the main mechanics of my build. It’s not about skill, it’s about something not working as intended due to what I perceive as oversight from the devs.
It’s not a problem when the passive never was ment to spawn the vanguards on hit. Do you even read what you are writing? You want a passive interaction changed that was NEVER meant to be the way you want it magicly trasnfered to because it fits your style. To be clear we need some Dev input here if this was a year long oversight and they want to change this or if anything is working as intended or if they want to change it to make a strong skill node even stronger. Everything here boils down to “me not having 150% dmg but me want 150% dmg”.
I don’t. I can use your build, throw something out and have the 150% dmg skill 24/7. You want one interaction that suites your build and I simply don’t think this should be changed to make a already strong skill node even stronger.
Maybe a Dev is reading this and will answer to it because I don’t think we could agree on:
“Yes it would be nive to have a on boss hit procc but to be real that would be OP if the chance isn’t low enough to not make it not OP.”
So why change stuff then at all if you do so?
That passive is like this since it existed. You only got Vanguards on kill and not on hit. From my viewpoint the intention is to work on kill since implemented and it works on kill as implemented so it works like intended.
Again if a dev comes in here and says it was an oversight for years or they think your idea is good and hungering strike always needs a 150% dmg modifier that is fuled by 2 passive points then you get what you want. I somehow doubt this will happen.
Just out of pure intrest… how low should the on boss hit chance be? Don’t forget that it should suite all skills so not to much proccs on Marrow Shards machine gun builds and not to little on Harvest what has the lowest speed of all skills.
Pretty sure the “3 minion buff” is supposed to be a drawback so you don’t get it with an army of minions.
While its nifty that you try to use Vanguards to take advantage of the 150% buff, I don’t think it is intended.
You should assume that if they allow Vanguards to be more easily summoned, then they will probably also do that with a nerf to the damage bonus you are trying to get.
I also don’t really understand how you see this going down. Even if you did have the ability to summon them on hit against bosses, if they die so easily, you will almost never have the bonus as you will struggle to keep up with them dying.
2 Likes
I don’t see the issue with making skeleton vanguards easier to summon on rare/bosses then if you say they’ll die so easily that it wouldn’t matter. It would make the passive more in line with on kill effects in the game and make it more versatile.
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Reading the forums these days is really hard for me. Every day somebody posts his opinion about a skill or interaction and gives suggestions to make it better you guys jump in and pretend this crap above. It’s always the player’s fault.
Obviously you guys haven’t ever played a HS build that relies on the node to have 3 minions active. Yet you give shitty tips and blame the player. Tell me, how would you build a viable Lich with that node in HS?
- Its hard to get exactly 3 minions in the game as a Lich without gimping yourself too hard by using a minion skill. Also it doesn’t work on higher content, because your minions will die too fast because
- you don’t spec into minion skills on a Lich
The passive that exactly gives you 3 minions in the Lich tree without the need to waste a skill slot looks literally like it is created for this particular interaction.
But it doesn’t work on bosses for the reasons OP mentioned.
The workaround is to swap a minion skill like skelerons or mages in for a bossfight to be able to resummon your 3 minions. But thats clunky as hell.
All the OP asks for is a way to make this stuff less clunky. Other skills in this game and skills in other games give you both:
- On kill effect on trash
- On hit effect on champions and bosses
This is a common and very reasonable feature and nothing extraordinary. Especially for a passive that gives you no way to have any control.
Its like giving throne of ambition buff effect on kill. Would that feel great? No, I wouldn’t.
Many games give you add phases in bossfights so you can restack your buffs and stuff that inly works on kill. LE doesn’t do this reliably.
So instead of trolling peoples suggestions with less helpful comments like
You could post a viable suggestion about how the player is supposed to solve the problem without using the passive. But nothing you just pulled out of nowhere. Something that actually works.
It’s not “his playstyle”. It’s a flawed skill/passive interaction that cannot fulfill any other purpose than what OP is doing with it.
If you don’t have a solution, just skip the thread. But this kind of gatekeeping is not very helpful.
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Reading the forums these days and people who get salty about everything that is an opposing opinion. It may look like this to you and it might look like THE solution to a made up problem.
The passive is there for a looooong time and as I said above only a dev can shed light on the matter because if this is a year long oversight so be it.
Then again enough players have shown it’s possible to use this skill in high corruption and even the OP says he is able to kill stuff even without 3 minions out and the active buff from the skillnode.
Why should I? The OP already said he can kill stuff without the node active so there is no issue and only the wish for more power in the most easy way possible.
No I don’t because making an easy game even more easy isn’t good for it’s well beeing. With changes like this you create another Diablo 3 because the easiest way to fix thing aka “enable high damage multipliers” is a bad solution.
on top of it I won’t skip any thread that peaks my intrested no matter how much you would like it because it looks like the only thing you can say to someone with vailid arguments that are opposed to yours is “Go away!”. Nah don’t play along in this game ^^.