Primalist could do with some Fire/Ignite support

[Knocks]

I recently made an Ignite Primalist based on the node in Earthquake that converts it to a fire skill. The character it at level 75 and doing fine, but it could be so much better (and more fun) if primalist had… literally any support for fire/ignite at all.

I am not exaggerating when I say Primalist has literally NO supporting passives or skill nodes for fire damage outside of the aforementioned Earthquake node and a fire node in the Tornado skill. Both of those are Shaman skills, but the Shaman tree doesn’t have a SINGLE passive that buffs fire damage at all. And neither do any of the other passive trees. (I ended up going Beastmaster just for Aspect buffs)

There isn’t even another skill that has a fire node. Not Swipe, not Fury Leap… NONE of the pets have ANY fire related skills. The build is fun with just the Fire Earthquake but it’d be way better if there was some sort of synergy I could pair it with.

Ideally I’d love a whole new fire pet (maybe a Phoenix), but that would obviously be a lot of work. A few fire damage/ignite nodes in one of the passive trees and some fire conversion nodes in the regular Primalist skills (I think Fury Leap is an excellent fit) would be fantastic.

[Heavy]

Devs want their classes to have very thematic “directions”.

All classes have some outliner skills like those few fire thigns you mentioned for Primalist, Sentinel has very few lightning stuff, Acolyte has some Fire Stuff too etc.

I think that is totally fine.

The only thing i can see, are some crazy skill/build changing uniques.
Especially with the new teasered Unique i have high hopes for some crazy uniques.
Not sure if we will get convert on uniques though.

TL:DR: IMO primalist should not get more fire support baseline, only through uniques for very niche playstyles.

[Knocks]

Well if they don’t want Fire Primalist to be viable they should just not give EQ/Tornado fire nodes at all. In level 100 monoliths the character is doing significantly less than damage than any ‘traditional’ build because of a lack of fire support in the passives/skills.

Devs will eventually add even harder content and the build will probably end up being completely useless. So why even give EQ a fire node in the first place? Either give it some more support or remove it completely - otherwise it’ll be a dead node. If nobody will use it, what’s the point?

This is only my opinion. I respect your point of view too, and would definitely like to see some crazy uniques that would enable niche playstyles more.

[Heavy]

@Knocks

So why even give EQ a fire node in the first place? Either give it some more support or remove it completely - otherwise it’ll be a dead node. If nobody will use it, what’s the point?

As i already stated, there are similar converts for other classes skills, those are very niche and that’s fine.

Is it useless? No
Is it very niche and you need to build very specifically? Yes

I really just want such playstyle to stay niche, otherwise it will evole into a endless race: Why does class X does not has Y, Why does class A boes not have B etc…

And at the end all classes can do all.

[Vidya]

Haven’t played Primalist, never will since the archetype is one that has never interested me in any game, but this topic of niche nodes and support is an interesting one.

Personally, if there’s a skill node for it, I want the direct passive tree support or some means of utilizing existing passives through skill nodes (such as conversion).

The way I see builds is you’ve got your skills, your passives, and your items. When a build isn’t being supported by one of those three, it just really kills the excitement from a psychological perspective. It’s like supported builds get three shiny toys to play with while unsupported ones only get two.

Having to pick between cool passives that could both enhance your build feels great. Having to pick a passive because it’s the least crappy choice you have doesn’t feel great. It’s like picking one of the “skill tax nodes” or “pre-req passives” to get to the actual good stuff, except when something is too niche, there is no good stuff to pick.

Not saying ever skill should be equally viable, but even the niche skills need something they can excel at (like CC, mobility, QoL, looking cool AF) that makes picking them up worthwhile or you end up wondering why the option is even there because it becomes a non-option.

And while the devs may have thematic directions, if they’ve included an option for it, it sounds like it’s a part of their vision for the class at least. Maybe not the primary one, but they see a primalist that does fire stuff as a thing. Not sure that’s a reason to not include more robust support for it somehow eventually at least.

[boardman21]

@Heavy

Devs want their classes to have very thematic “directions”.

I agree with this, BUT why isn’t fire thematic for shaman?

Yes its mostly based around Cold/Lightning/Physical but considering “Elemental” is a natural trilogy of Cold/Lightning/Fire there’s really no reason FIRE cant be added to the shaman for more diversity.

It’s a class that’s suppose to be attune’d with nature, FIRE is definitely a natural phenomenon along with LIGHTNING and COLD.

I agree with @Knocks that:

@Knocks

A few fire damage/ignite nodes in one of the passive trees and some fire conversion nodes in the regular Primalist skills (I think Fury Leap is an excellent fit) would be fantastic.

This should be done. There’s really no reason not to add Fire support and even a FIRE skill and FIRE totem to the shaman’s arsenal.

Even a:

@Knocks

Ideally I’d love a whole new fire pet (maybe a Phoenix), but that would obviously be a lot of work.

Is an awesome ideal. When undoubtly the primalist as a whole gets an “UPGRADE” fire should definitely be supported.

Something I think some of the skills as SORCERER need as well is FIRE conversion of Lightning Blast and Lightning version of Volcanic ORB.

More options. More Diversity. More interest.

[Llama8]

Because if he had lots of fire support as well then he’d be an Elementalist rather a Shaman. IMO, he’s weather-based (cold/lightning) rather than nature. And if he was a nature-based caster, why wouldn’t he have support for every single element, after all, death is part of the natural turn of events so give him Necrotic support, the Void is part of natural worls & many creatures use Poison to defend themselves or hunt so he clearly deserves Poison support, many of his skills have a poison bent infact, far more so than fire!

[boardman21]

@Llama8

Because if he had lots of fire support as well then he’d be an Elementalist rather a Shaman

Well for starters if we want to go off get technical with shaman he shouldnt have lightning or cold he should have healing and spiritual skills and have more of a buffer role.

@Llama8

IMO, he’s weather-based (cold/lightning) rather than nature

Here I was thinking weather caused fires.

@Llama8

the Void is part of natural worls & many creatures use Poison to defend themselves or hunt so he clearly deserves Poison support, many of his skills have a poison bent infact, far more so than fire!

Uh what

[Llama8]

@boardman21

Well for starters if we want to go off get technical with shaman he shouldnt have lightning or cold he should have healing and spiritual skills and have more of a buffer role.

Yup, that’d be good/“thematic”.

Here I was thinking weather caused fires.

It does, but then why don’t cold attacks “put out” ignites? Why don’t Lightning hits have a chance to proc an ignite?

@Llama8

the Void is part of natural worls & many creatures use Poison to defend themselves or hunt so he clearly deserves Poison support, many of his skills have a poison bent infact, far more so than fire!

Uh what

If you’re going down the route of “well X is in nature therefore the Shaman deserves X support”, I would argue that a)he therefore deserves support for every element & b)since he has way more poison-related skills & poison is more of a “nature” thing that he should get poison support in his passive tree before he gets fire support. And fire is more of a fundamental building block of the universe rather than something that the natural world “creates” (like poison), as is Lightning to be fair & cold is merely the relative absence of heat.

TLDR, IMO, “X occurs in nature” is a poor argument to support the Shaman getting fire support in his passive tree, poison support, sure.

[boardman21]

@Llama8

It does, but then why don’t cold attacks “put out” ignites? Why don’t Lightning hits have a chance to proc an ignite?

COLD isn’t effective against FIRE, your thinking water.

as for lightning…
They do if you take global ignite chance. Just like not every Lightning strike cause a fire, you got have the right conditions

@Llama8

If you’re going down the route of “well X is in nature therefore the Shaman deserves X support”, I would argue that a)he therefore deserves support for every element &

That was a reason, but not the basis of the argument. The basis is it has FIRE conversions in its skills but has NO fire support and deserves some. WHY? Because if your going to make skills convert to an element type they should be supported. Imagine Lightning blast and Volcanice orb having Cold conversions but Sorcerer tree have 0 support for Cold.

Your argument saying giving it FIRE means it should get ALL damage types is not as synergistic or thematic as adding FIRE to a LIGHTNING/COLD class. These three go together “naturally” that’s why there grouped as elementals. As for wanting to rename the class an ELEMENTALIST instead of SHAMAN… well to be honest, that name already fits better considering the true form of a shaman anyways so that’s not a very compelling argument of why it SHOULD NOT get fire.

TLDR - IM all for FIRE on shaman and that’s my Opinion. I personally think it would fit in nicely, regardless what we call it.

[Knocks]

And while the devs may have thematic directions, if they’ve included an option for it, it sounds like it’s a part of their vision for the class at least.

The basis is it has FIRE conversions in its skills but has NO fire support and deserves some.

These convey my thoughts pretty well. If the devs have added fire conversions for some skills, they clearly WANT ‘Fire Shaman’ to be a playstyle in some form. As such, it should have some extra support to make it a more viable playstyle. I am NOT arguing that Fire should become a ‘main’ direction for that class. I merely want a handful of passive nodes and/or other fire conversions that make the build 1) more effective and 2) more fun.

Currently I am using (Fire) Earthquake, Swipe, Leap, Ice Thorns and Summon Wolf. It’s essential a random mix of skills that are ok by themselves and then Fire EQ. The damage is also fairly underwhelming in late game areas. Oh, and I mentioned this already but I am a Beastmaster primarily using a Shaman skill because the Shaman passives don’t offer a single option for this build. Have you ever played a build before where you feel like none of the passive trees are actually useful so you just settle for the one that sucks the least? It sort of ruins the fun of character building. If you don’t want me to play Fire Shaman… don’t give it fire skills.

Some extra support would go a long way in making this niche build feel more exciting and viable to play. And it would still be a niche build - again, I am NOT arguing that a whole passive tree should be dedicated towards Fire. Just give me a Leap node that leaves a burning patch on the ground and a passive node that gives me some extra fire damage/ignite chance. That’s all I’m suggesting.

As far as the ‘thematic’ argument, I am an advocate for fun and interesting gameplay over sticking to very rigid outlines in terms of character design because it’s ‘thematic’. As @boardman21 said:

More options. More Diversity. More interest.

[Llama8]

@Knocks

These convey my thoughts pretty well. If the devs have added fire conversions for some skills, they clearly WANT ‘Fire Shaman’ to be a playstyle in some form. As such, it should have some extra support to make it a more viable playstyle. I am NOT arguing that Fire should become a ‘main’ direction for that class. I merely want a handful of passive nodes and/or other fire conversions that make the build 1) more effective and 2) more fun.

Currently I am using (Fire) Earthquake, Swipe, Leap, Ice Thorns and Summon Wolf. It’s essential a random mix of skills that are ok by themselves and then Fire EQ. The damage is also fairly underwhelming in late game areas. Oh, and I mentioned this already but I am a Beastmaster primarily using a Shaman skill because the Shaman passives don’t offer a single option for this build.

I think there are two different ways of looking at this. One is “you’ve given me one (or two) skills that can be converted to element X without any passives to support that element”, the other (which I think is the devs view) is “here’s this one conversion which looks cool but other than that we’re not supporting it”. Not every possible build needs full support from passives, and that’s ignoring that you can still support a fire Earthquake build with generic +% melee, +% spell (if you take the Storm Rift node) or +% elemental passives & affixes. From a quick look, most of the Shaman passives seem to support either Totems, flat added damage or secondary effects (cast lightning on hit, stun, freeze). So if you’re going for an Earthquake build, you’ll probably be putting quite a lot of points into Beastmaster.

Have you ever played a build before where you feel like none of the passive trees are actually useful so you just settle for the one that sucks the least? It sort of ruins the fun of character building. If you don’t want me to play Fire Shaman… don’t give it fire skills.

Let me introduce you to my 2-h Rogue build (a favourite of @KissingAiur) …

Some extra support would go a long way in making this niche build feel more exciting and viable to play. And it would still be a niche build - again, I am NOT arguing that a whole passive tree should be dedicated towards Fire. Just give me a Leap node that leaves a burning patch on the ground and a passive node that gives me some extra fire damage/ignite chance. That’s all I’m suggesting.

IMO, Shaman could do with some more passives that buff % melee/spell damage.

[Knocks]

the other (which I think is the devs view) is “here’s this one conversion which looks cool but other than that we’re not supporting it”.

I do think you might be right. Personally though I just can’t wrap my head around offering players a bad option with little to no support, but I understand my views won’t always align with the devs views on how things should be handled and that’s totally fine.

IMO, Shaman could do with some more passives that buff % melee/spell damage.

I would definitely agree with this. The Shaman tree could use some work.

[Irrelevant]

@Knocks

I would definitely agree with this. The Shaman tree could use some work.

Shaman and Druid are in dire need of work. Beastmaster works with all it’s aspects even when it’s pretty blunt but Shaman and Druid look even worse since I’ve seen the possibilitys of the Rogue.