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Please no AH or bazzar. Instanced party trading is okay

Bring back the bazaar… except refine the idea. Start by creating a new npc named Obi-Too.

If an immoral player tries to trade, then the npc will say these are not the voids you are looking for.

Exactly this. Why do I have to socialize just to trade an item? I feel like people are too scared of having an actual trading system in ARPGs nowadays. I mean this game is still in beta and even if a trading system like Bazaar or whatever they implement fails, they can reiterate over that since that’s not the final version of the trading system.

People don’t like PoE’s trading system because it is such a chore to do it. D3’s RMAH sucked hard too. I think we need something in between honestly.

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No. People don’t like it because then the drops have to be balanced around having trading. That means that loot drops get very much more rare and most players will just resort to buying all their gear and hope for lottery drops.

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Well I would like to think that developers always know what is best for their game. But sometimes they have tough decisions like this one. Blizzard couldn’t even get this right. I still don’t think any arpg I have played has gotten this right. POE has SSF but they balance drops around trade so while you are playing SSF you are not getting the loot you would be getting if the entire game was self found loot. I

Do you like the way the game currently is? I do. I enjoy just playing and crafting. I don’t want to play an economy or sell items to buy other items.

I don’t think they should nerf drops because of multiplayer and trading. You are kidding yourself if you think they can add an AH and not nerf drops. Please no trading.

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Imagine PoE only having this sort of trade system, I would literally die if I had to group with a Necro sporting 20 minions and some guy playing VD with mtx. I get sloppy fps on my own, that would be enough for me not to play at all.

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To steal a blurb from another thread;

So where does trading fit in?

Basically this taken from:Cursed Problems in Game Design - YouTube

Essentially the tldr; is you cant have a rich loot experience while also allowing wide accessible trade. This is a cursed problem. if you can trade for loot efficiently then drops dont matter, and if drops are varied and come in large quantities to keep a solo player engaged then the market quickly saturates and you dont have items worth anything so the market place fantasy breaks down.

My solution to this problem is to simply limit what can be traded. Allow a full trade experience, but only with very utilitarian or minor items.

The items you can trade are shards, rare items, keys and uniques without LP.

this option allows gearing to be fleshed out by trading, you can buy mats, decent mid ticket items like t20s and build enabling uniques/set items. But legendaries, exalted and other chase items are locked from the market to prevent the best course of action to getting an upgrade being “lets buy 50 1lp bleeding hearts and 50 exalted amulets with exalted DoT and 50 keys to run it”

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I am sort of “stuck” in this whole trading discussion…

From a 100% personal perspective, I do not want trading beyond sharing drops in a single multiplayer instance - e.g. you can share drops that you find (not brought into) in a multiplayer instance with whomever you are playing with at the time and started the instance with you… Once you leave everything is untradeable forever. That would be my ideal trading solution.

I would also be 100% against any real money transactions involved in trading. The downsides of this vastly outweigh any positives and imho would ruin LE.

Beyond this is where things get tricky…

I understand those people who do not have time to farm for choice drops and would rather trade… In this instance, so long as there is NO way for these characters to compete on ladders/in cycles etc where someone can just buy their way to a min/maxed gear build, then I have zero issues with trading for best items as it affects no-one but the player who purchased the gear and improves their enjoyment of the game in a 100% individual way.

I have zero issues with the game drops being balanced for a non-trading environment… If the market is saturated with items for trade, then who actually cares? People who want to play without trading have zero problem… People who want to trade can find anythig they want without issues… If you dont want to trade, dont,… If you dont want to farm, dont… The responsibility is moved from the game to the player on how they want to play… Personally I think the trade option would ruin the game and reduce its long term appeal, but if its the players choice then its their choice…

The only issue i have is in competitive play,… If people want to participate in competitive play and trade then there needs to be some way to differentiate this participation to ensure fairness… E.g. in sport - e.g. strongman contests, if there is an open category where people can take performance enhancing drugs etc… then thats fine and anything goes… but its an entirely separate category from natty atheletes competing against other natty athletes on a fair playing field.

To ensure that trading doesnt impact on things in a detrimental way for competitive play, I would say that in LE there could be different ladders that are controlled… If you want to compete in a multiplayer environment:

Open - trading allowed, shared stash
Closed - no trading, shared stash
Self Found - no trading, no shared stash

Etc…

EDIT: I would not want to be in the developers shoes wrt. makng a decision on what to do about trading… cause nothing they implement is going to be good enough for everyone…

The devs seem to want trading but do not want an ECONOMY

No, it does not work that way, that is impossible

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Honestly, I dont think the devs want trading… I think players are demanding it…

How would a very basic version of trading that allows sharing drops with other people in a multiplayer instance/map need an economy?

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In that instance the “economy” would be shrunk down to the size of the player group, since those are the only players you can trade with. If there was unrestricted trading (or even the bazaar as originally communicated), the “economy” would be the pool of players who choose to engage in trade (much larger than in the instance where you can only trade with the people in the party when the item dropped).

Players do not want that though, they want to trade things they got outside of the instance

And if that happens then economy is the result

One way to open the door on trading a little bit, without kicking the door down completely, is to limit trade to a SLIGHTLY larger group of players.

An example I would use here is ESO’s Trade Guilds. They are limited in size and number of items that can be posted for sale…

This has two effects:

  1. It saves from the Guild AH being full of garbage to sift through,
  2. It limits availability to enlisted players only… I abhore this system in ESO, but COULD work well in an ARPG.

There is middle ground for LE somewhere, they just have to be smart about it.

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What do you mean by “enlisted” players? Players within the guild? If so, it would require a cap on the number of players in a guild.

Guilds in ESO have a cap, hence I said they are limited in size…but it’s not quite as important as limiting the number of items that can be sold at one time. So, there two caps at play here. ESO has much the same goals as LE, as far as loot progression goes.

Agree with this.

The cockamamie views about trade from the developers of a certain dominant ARPG, and the abject failure of a certain other ARPG to intelligently integrate accessible trade have polluted the conversation about trade with pearl clutching for over a decade. LE’s discussion and implementation of trade does not need to also be polluted by the same nonsense. None of the fears are valid and all can be mitigated. But nobody is willing to try because gamers that have spent years swallowing BS turn into banshees at the first sniff of the phrase “auction house”.

Blizzard didn’t get it right because they didn’t try. They just dropped an AH down and made no attempt to do anything differently in the entire rest of the game. There are probably a dozen or more things they could have at least tried, and they did none of them.

Anybody who tells me that my drops don’t matter because I got a valuable drop that I didn’t want and conveniently converted it into an item I did want through trade is trying to sell me a bridge. That premise is either a lie or a delusion, depending on who is saying it, and everybody needs to stop treating it like gospel.

In your usual angle grinder way, between the violent sparks of burning iron, you do make valid points.

The thing here is that you dont accept that an Arpg doesnt actually need trading… and, the simple fact that if it did have trading that did not close 100% of the loopholes & negative repercussions, it has the potential of destroying a game…

So yes, a perfect implementation of a trading system in a game that couldnt be manipulated, not influenced by bots & real life money scams and didnt cause countless other problems in a game in terms of balance etc would be wonderful…

But the developers are developing an arpg game… not a trading system with an economy and a game attached to it…

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I am assuming a gross generalisation on your part here… but what happens if the devs dont allow a full trading solution that requires/generates an economy that they then have to manage?

Just speculating as I have no idea… but based on all the trade discussions that have been had here on the forum, including the devs changing their tack numerous times… I doubt that the devs are planning a complex trading system - at least not at first…

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I don’t think an arpg with a well designed loot system needs trade. As long as they give you enough storage to store items for other builds, loot can actually be fun instead of an economy simulator chore. You can have multiplayer where people play together without trading. It would be so nice.

Do you like the way the current game is? I do. Why can’t it stay the way it is with loot but just allow me to play with friends? Seems like a great arpg to me.

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Imagine if you didn’t ever have to go on an auction house or trade website or figure out the value of an item or if you had to double check to make sure your item wasn’t price fixed or that the person trading you wasn’t scamming you. Imagine not having to compete with bots buying things before you or item flippers. Imagine just playing the game instead. Imagine a world that is the current version of the game but you can play with friends. Sounds good to me.

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Why do people play one game within a genre and not another?

Simple, differences between the games.

So, why do any newer games within a genre have to attempt to mimic other games within that genre? The basic premise of this is flawed. It is illogical.

So, do we need an economy or trading at all? I personally don’t think so. I’ve yet to see anything tangible that an economy or trading brings to any other game I’ve played in the past, aside from “easy mode” or “lazy mode”. Do we really want those types of players in the community in the first place? What do “instant gratification” players bring to the table long term for games or their devs? It seems to me, in my opinion again, that all these types of players bring are headaches, whinging, trolling in forums, and “dumbing down” of games. They want to start new toons, do no grinding or work to speak of, buy all their gear, coast through levels to end game in BiS levelling gear, buy more gear; then get bored and moan about content, having done very little of it in any meaningful way.

I am completely in favour of multiplayer instanced trading. If we ever get MP type content like raids then I think being able to redistribute that gear amongst your party after the boss is absolutely fine. It’s another reward for working together on that “job”.

Should you then be able to sell it to any other player via an AH or Trading site? No, I don’t support that at all. I could have just about got behind the Bazaar as I’ve seen that work elsewhere and it requires some effort from players to walk the place etc. AH’s though? No thanks.

Using MP instanced loot. A newer player could group with more experienced players or mates to grind some gear collectively. No problem, it’s gear gained from gameplay. A new build/toon could group with his mates to help gear it up faster. Again, gameplay based gear. No problem.

New player/toon just buying from an AH etc? No. Zero gameplay involved. As to how they get their currency initially? Well, that’s where the main problems start, especially for new accounts who don’t actually want to play much at all to level or grind currency.

I say, probably unpopularly once again, don’t cater to the snowflakes or “easy mode” people at all. There are already tons upon tons of games out there that offer instant gratification for these people. Some of us came here to avoid that. We graft or grind for our gear, not just buy it. Forget the instant gratification people, ignore them. Give us this one ARPG game safe haven from “economies”, “trading”, and all the other crap that comes with it. MP instanced swapping as a reward for gameplay? Sure. Anything else, go play something else.

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