I know what you’re thinking, paragon was terrible in Diablo 3. Infinite power gain was a really bad idea and I hope we never see anything like that again.
That being said, there are some things about the paragon system in Diablo 3 that I really like. I like that I would be farming for a specific item for days and and it doesn’t drop, but I’ve still gained paragon levels so I didn’t feel like that time was wasted.
I think that having some sort of ‘account level’ independent of your individual character levels would be a nice idea. It wouldn’t have to give the player anything for their levels, in fact I’d prefer that it didn’t. It would just be for the ‘prestige’ of being at a high level.
I guess there wouldn’t be any harm in adding a leaderboard for people that want to compete if that’s their thing, it could be a seasonal thing.
Just question, but if crafting materials are important, don’t you think getting crafting material is pretty much sort of progress even if that specific item did not drop?
I feel if there is some stuff to farm, like crafting mats, no hour of grinding is wasted.
That’s true, but usually with these type of games you get to a point where you have so many crafting materials that you don’t need to worry about them again. I guess it’s less of a problem in hardcore.
There’s also something cool about joining a multiplayer game with a really high level. It’s something to show off for the hundreds of hours I normally spend on these games.
I think we have to wait on how this could play out to see what a more final rendering of the xp curve is overall. As it stands I’m a moderately casual player, got about 350 hours in and my highest level character is 78. I don’t do a lot of Arena, I like to play around with builds and try out different skills. So if the leveling is much slower than d3, than you will definitely be ‘working towards’ something for a long time while farming for that gear. I think d3 was implemented because getting to level 70, even on first release was pretty damn fast.
That said, most likely there will be something in between. Much slower leveling but not as slow as say d2. And some sort of continued progress once level 100 IS reached, but not something that shatters power creep like it did in d3.
As a moderately casual player, I disagree with this. Why shouldn’t those who play more (those who can play more) have more powerful characters? Do you think it unreasonable that PoE players who have played more have more powerful characters than those who haven’t?
Hi, new I’m here.
There are two sides to this: the perspective of the single player, and that of a group. If you look at the group, the things like comparing to others, showing off or fairness come into play. Leaderboards, cometitions, races, caps to keep the players within a certain group so they still feel it’s not to late to step in and compete. That sort of thing.
But from the persepctive of a single player, things like persistance, time spent playing vs (feeling of) rewards, long term goals are relevant. How your character compares to monsters, how interesting (that is: varied) the content is in the long run, etc.
Systems like the paragon, with endless progression are perfectly fine from the perspective of a single player. They only are problematic in multiplayer, because of the reasons mentioned above.
It’s which player base LE wants to attract, the choice for MTX as monetization scheme lends itself towards multiplayer, as ‘comparing to others’ is the driving force behind the sales. Which does not bode well for single player (just look at POE), as things (loot drops) are balanced around trade instead individual progression. But that’s a different topic
I disagree. I wouldn’t be interested in a paragon system just for single player, the whole idea is to compare yourself with other people. Most people are competitive by nature, that’s why they are drawn to games with competitive elements. We can see this by comparing games like grim dawn to path of exile. PoE has a huge active playerbase because of races, leaderboards, and other competitive elements that grim dawn doesn’t have.
I played over 6000 hours on diablo 3 (more than all other ARPGs combined) because I got addicted to the paragon system. I played every class and build to death, my gear was practically perfect, there was nothing else keeping me playing except for my paragon level. If it wasn’t for paragon levelling I would have got bored and stopped playing after a fraction of that time.
I completely understand what you’re saying about keeping players in groups and new players being left behind. This can be an issue with endless levelling systems but I think that seasons can get around this problem.
But isn’t the paragon system working account wide? So you have an advantage with high paragon level even with a new league start?
I get the point that character progression beyond max level can ba attractive for players with a high playtime.
But I’d rather like to see rewards that are not stat changing and giving advantages gameplay wise. I’m more on the achievements side with titles, character effects and so on. Some exclusive stuff that makes hardcore players outstanding.
I said in the first post in this thread that I’d rather a paragon system didn’t give the players anything for their level and that linking power to time invested like Diablo 3 does was a bad idea for the same reasons you said.
This would be purely for levelling sake and wouldn’t give the player anything in return. The purpose of it would be to compare yourself with others which for some people like myself would give a reason to keep coming back (and spending money on cosmetics) long after I’ve exhausted the content.
There are many examples of games that have either endless levelling or some form of prestige system where you can reset your level and level up again for some sort of icon by your name.
Paragon levels can be problematic for power. In the case of multi vs. single player, one of the big issues I had with D3 (and I played that game a lot) was that those of us who didn’t want to play multiplayer were left in the dust regarding paragon. That wouldn’t necessarily be a problem with being competitive EXCEPT for the fact that the paragon points you earned in multiplayer effected ALL of your characters. So essentially you got power way quicker and by having to play multiplayer. This meant that a solo player had to put way more time in the game to get the same paragon level as someone who played multiplayer. Then those multiplayer folks with their huge XP boost could hop onto single player and melt the leaderboards.
I don’t have a problem with paragon itself, I would just like to see it not tied to something like experience because as noted to maximize efficiency (which is what arpgs are about, i.e. speed farming, etc.) you’d have to play mutliplayer. I don’t like ANYTHING that ties progress in the game to multiplayer.
So if some sort of paragon system were implemented, maybe it could be tied to quests that have certain different requirements when done on solo or multiplayer that could essentially balance out the ‘time’ cost?
Sadly, I agree this is true for most arpg games and players. I for one am looking for different appeals in games. If I wanted to optimize my time vs gain, I would not be playing games I am drawn to things like mood, memorable experiences, interesting story (far fetched to look for that in arpg, I know LOL), characters I can create, develop and care about.
Most of the community is dominated by the desire to impress others (the primary goal of streamers it seems), so of course, speed, efficiency and power of your characters gets to be in the spotlight.
The paragon in D3 was indeed problematic because the solo leaderboards were dominated by the people who played multiplayer to gain paragon and level their gems. If you’d remove that factor, I see no harm in rewarding players with power based on their time investment.
The mechanic to have it transfer to other characters I like too, only because it promotes trying out different builds and so experiencing more content.
I agree with all of you that The Paragon in D3 was problematic but come on, is a game that it was supposed to be enjoyed. If you were talking to me about POE I could understand, but Diablo 3 is really easy to go.
But careful, the fight between Path of Exile vs Diablo 3 is neverending. I should recommend you all to just play and live the game as it is.
I want to experience a feeling of progression, but I don’t like the idea of infinite power scaling. I would be fine with a system that caps power, but allows me to earn cosmetics or prestige ranks.
Inquisitor: Martyr has multiple account-wide progression systems that don’t result in a massive power uptick while keeping a hard level cap of 100.
The player visits different star systems of themed worlds, each world having several random missions that refresh after a short period of time. Completing those missions raises your Influence in a system, and reaching certain Influence levels grants you special Fate currency with which to gain entry to locked end-game missions, high-end item caches, the ability to tweak items, unique gameplay options, etc. The player who has the most Influence in a system is named as that system’s Protector for all the world to see. Prestige is permanent for the entire game season and shows up on leaderboards.
While on missions, the player also earns Glory which resets each week. Tiers of Glory are gained faster than Influence and offer smaller but more frequent rewards of non-unique items and Fate points.
There is a level cap of 100 with the ability to bump mission difficulty to Level 110, but the real way to challenge yourself is to use a system called Uther’s Tarot. You choose combinations of Tarot cards which have massive penalties and rewards associated with them to spice up your missions. The Tarot are earned occasionally by finding them in missions, but mostly by maxing our your Influence in a star system.
The third account-wide progression system, is the passive skill tree unlocks. When a character is first created, they only have access to a selection of passive trees which reflect their archetype. However, by accomplishing various tasks (deal 1M fire damage, disarm 50 traps, etc.), passive trees from other archetypes are unlocked for all characters in your stable. The progress on the tasks is advanced by whatever character you’re playing at the time, and the cool thing is that it feels more like you’re expanding your options for growth instead of receiving a simple stat boost.
Hm, interesting topic. It seems that the devs were already considering global permanent buffs End-Game System Update: Monolith of Fate in this case you only benefit from them while in the MoF, but still think that’s brilliant implementation.
This is the only “Paragon-style” system I’d support.
NO INFINITE POWER GAIN. Period.
Infinite character progression is a balancing nightmare. A build should be able to be “finished”. Make the final levels an absolute bear to gain (ala D2 or PoE) but D3’s incarnation of the “continue leveling after you’re done leveling” system can die in a fire and rot in a ditch.
Allow players at max level to continue grinding to unlock cosmetics? Absolutely.
Allow players at max level to continue grinding to unlock additional stat/power increases? Hell no.
I really appreciate a final goal that feels satisfying to complete with some sort of in-game acknowledgement. Being able to actually reach a meaningful end is what transforms an RPG from a treadmill to a journey.
The Influence system I mentioned is great for players who’ve maxed out a character but still want to keep going. What’s more, you can gain the same amount of Influence with a Lv 20 as you can with a Lv 80 because Influence earned is determined not by your character level, but by how difficult you make the game relative to your level. You don’t feel like you’re wasting your time time by going on a journey with a new character instead of grinding with a character you’ve already played for eighty hours.
I am drawn to things like mood, memorable experiences, interesting story (far fetched to look for that in arpg, I know LOL), characters I can create, develop and care about.