Opinion: Levelling alts in Last Epoch is soul crushing

General
101

I think that would be fine too. Lost Ark does exactly that (it’s called “knowledge transfer”). If you’ve finished the campaign with one of your characters then you can boost your other alts up to the point where you can start working on the endgame build. Pretty much everyone uses that option because there are just so many times you can click through the same boring dialogues that most people probably don’t even read on their first run.

Plus they occasionally offer power passes and XP events which puts you straight into the endgame.

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Hey OP - don’t let these people here bully you with their bullshit ‘‘grinding is part of aRPGs and YOU MUST enjoy it otherwise you shouldnt be playing aRPGs’’ rhetoric.

You have a perfectly valid and legit complaint that is brought up in literally every aRPG out there.

Ffioritti proposed great solutions and I agree with them 100% - game would be so much better.

Right now LE Campaign is in a very weird place with how it interacts with the rest of the game.

Traditionally end game is unlocked after finishing Story. Not the case in LE since you can start Monoliths technically as early as lvl 40 from what I remember (which would be 18 lvls under first Monolith lvl range).

At the same time the game does not let you skip Story and level up in alternate mode like D3 Adventure Mode for example.

So you have this weird hybrid situation - you can just stop Campaign at any moment after grabbing 15 passives and 8 idol slots. But you have to play some of Campaign no matter what.

I played last time when Rogue class was released. Came back 2 days ago, launched lvl 25 Druid and was legit confused as to why should I even continue Campaign after Lagon ( new Chapter 9).

I did it to see new content + awesome new boss but the actual reward +1 attributes is not enticing for sure. A sidenote - I CANNOT believe you STILL cant abandon quests.

Personally I would prefer 2-4 passive points to be a reward for killing last boss (in current iteration of the game). I already have 10 classes leveled but for sure I wouldnt go through all Chapters again just for +1 attributes (or well at least not immediately).

People in chat mentioned that 12 Chapters are planned in final release. Which would make things even more weird.

Must be super confusing for absolutely new players.

I hope this is all just temporary and the Campaign>End game transition will be more polished and make more sense at release.

Obviously it’s best to give people more options to level alts. Optional ‘‘Adventure Mode’’ type of system would easily solve all the issues.

The defenders of ‘‘grinding for the sake of grinding’’ could ofcourse just NOT use the alternate system.

And I gotta say - it would be hilarious to very likely see most of these people use the new system anyway.

As to how to deal with this situation?

Just gotta soldier on I suppose.

You just need to adjust your attitude and mental state.

Basically ‘‘suffer’’ through the tedious and not so fun parts of the game (for people in this situation) - in order to get to the ‘‘good stuff’’.

In PoE I roll 3-4 builds each League (3 months) if that League is good and 2 builds if the League is ‘‘bad’’. Obviously you cannot skip a 10 Act Campaign there.

So every time I just treat leveling (getting through Acts) as a ‘‘job’’. You just do it in order to have fun later.

Same thing happens a lot in most MMOs. Obviously these days you can buy paid boosts etc but the vanilla experience is the same.

If you like a given game enough - this approach works.

If you don’t though - you will only be miserable and I would self impose some kind of limit - let’s say 2 characters per Season/League (which will be the system in LE).

Or pray devs are not stuck in the past, are open to feedback and not afraid to shake things up and actually do implement some alternative ways to level up alts in the future.

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103

I’m against “options” - which IMO is little more than a dog whistle phrase here - that promote, incentivize, and facilitate the wholesale bypass of gameplay elements so that a certain type of player can more easily treat a game as nothing more than a flashy overlay for a spreadsheet.

I feel strongly that games, game communities, game development, and the dialogue about games have been (perhaps irrevocably) polluted by the types of players whose preferred engagement with a game is to optimize the fun out of it because the only part of the game that’s “fun” for them is the fake numbers. I think the type of player that wants to skip a huge chunk of the game and create a character directly at Level X because “the campaign isn’t the real game and I’ve done it once already so why should I have to do it again I shouldn’t have to do anything I don’t like” is a poisonous minority that has for too long been treated as more important than it should be, and I think LE the game and the community that surrounds it is better off inviting as few such players as possible to the party.

Or, more succinctly - I’m against adding “options” that exist solely as a shiny bauble for the most toxic of powergamers, and if anybody is kept out of LE by needing to do the campaign or level a character more than once, I say that person isn’t somebody we should want here to begin with.

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I would say i don’t mind the rite of passage pre-mastery area, but the limbo between mastery and monoliths does feel pretty lame honestly knowing I will probably get NOTHING of value gear wise from the campaign content since I’ve already cleared it and far more.

Honestly I think the solution could be simple as adding some an intro monolith(s) prior to the current ones. Atm the progression is 58-62-66-70-75-80-85-90-90-90, maybe we could add a ~40-50ish monolith?
It could be accessed as a smaller side portal near the Fall of the Outcasts monolith in one of those time rift portals which could serve almost like a side story piece, maybe even utilize that woefully underused ancient era enemy set more? It wouldn’t be so much a suggested idea as it would still be quite a bit more challenging at first than the campaign progression - but would offer the option for those experienced with monos to move forward.
Probably would be mostly rare/gold/arena key/exp rewards with maybe a couple random unique item nodes sprinkled in and probably some lighter than average modifiers to serve as the introductory monolith better.
You would still have to fight to earn your mastery - but once you are there you’d have the right to try and just brute force your way into the monoliths whether the timeline wants you there or not!

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Yikes that’s kinda sad.

Glad devs do not think in such a toxic way.

As far as I know Dungeons will let you skip parts of Campaign - or well advance it faster anyway.

I am sure that will be expanded further in the future.

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106

I would have to say the issue with your reasoning is that for many of us we love ARPGs for watching our builds progress and develop over time, and to experience the advancement from simple gear to high end exalted/legendary items going from “just another build” to something worthy of note or in my case trying to experiment with builds that don’t seem to get a lot of love from the community.
And - at least currently - I feel that a LOT of builds don’t really develop/improve/take off until around monoliths/very late campaign due to the astringent gear progression in campaign being quite prohibitive and also more importantly the leveling up itself being sluggish in the midgame of the campaign. I mean at the very least thats my experience so yeah like I said in my post I really would prefer if you could break into monoliths a bit sooner somewhere in the mid-40’s-early 50s range.
That or alternatively do what grim dawn did and let the normal/basic campaign get an augmented/expert version with faster exp gain and rougher monsters for those of us who have been here and done that.
Oh and P.S.: Please consider using a potion to cleanse ailments you seem to be awfully toxic in that post thanks.

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107

Firing, avoiding, and trying not to attract “customers” that cause more harm than their money helps is not toxic, it’s Business 101. It’s no different than putting up guardrails to keep out bigots. You just don’t like that the group being accused of being toxic is one you’re in.

But the reality is that powergamers are ultimately toxic to everything they touch, and they make games and game communities worse every time they get a foothold in them. I’ve seen it happen over and over. Everybody understands it but nobody is willing to say it out loud because part of the way they’re toxic is by trying their damndest to burn the whole house down at the smallest excuse to feel slighted.

Your incorrect assertion that you can’t experiment during the campaign notwithstanding, when that statement is true, the speaker is not trying to skip large parts of the game that involve their build progressing and developing over time.

But we’re not going to go anywhere productive now that I’ve said the quiet part out loud so I’m gonna bow out.

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From what I understand, passive points and idol slots will still be acquired by questing. The dungeon is just an alternate method for leveling. Unless something has changed that I haven’t seen.

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I really think that asking a player to play lvl 1-20, which play largely the same, is not great. I think if dungeons get worked out where they become a viable ‘fast forward,’ excellent. If the Arena had a levelling mode, that could be a 3rd rail. Honestly, lock it behind 10 characters or whatever, but skipping to 50 isn’t even too egregious imo.

I don’t see the argument that wanting to skip the parts of the game you don’t like to get to the parts you do makes you toxic, an infant, or anything else.

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This is the consequence of high powered loot filters. Players find near-perfect loot for their level and adjust filter to only see an upgrade on that.

I do not think there is a solution besides a ingame tutorial on basic filtering.

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This is the issue in all games, obviously people look at PoE for being the most egregious in this respect.

Maybe after completing the story once fully, you allow us to level using the arena initially, and having set waves as breakpoints for the passives we would normally get in the story. Then it is up to us when we feel confident to begin monolith.

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I come back after ~2 years away, browse the forums, and to my disappointment the very same self-appointed den-mother/gatekeeper is adding her special brand of toxicity, derailing each and every thread by telling everyone why their opinions are wrong.

What an awful look for a promising young game with heaps of potential.

And to the other valuable suggestions from the REST of the posters in the forum: thank you!

No player owns this game or can proclaim ‘the correct way to play the game’ while staying grounded in reality, and I’m sorry to be the one to dash any hopes to the contrary. Bullies suck wherever they happen to show up.

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How is it a HUGE chunk of the game if my average character spends less than 5% of his life in the campaign?

Anyways, if an OPTION were added to skip the campaign and level to endgame faster, how many newly created characters that were not a player’s first character do you predict would use such a TOXIC option?

Personally, I’d guess 80%.

And for a player’s 3rd character, I’d bet it would be well over 90%.

And after that, 100%?

It is not toxic, it is convenience and QoL nothing more.

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114

It can be toxic to the game itself. And, in this case, it really is. The campaign has already been modified, quite extensively, to avoid players have to complete it each playthrough. As it stands now, it’s roughly a 3-5 hour commitment, depending on experience and gear available. Any further alteration would have to also involve completely removing the questing requirement on mastery selection, passive points and idol slots. And, as soon as there’s a Quicker Way™, that will become the Default Way™™™, especially after leagues and ladders are introduced.

Could the campaign be a little less dull and repetitious? I suppose. But even with random maps, increased density and whatever else, it’ll still just be considered a dull speedbump on the road to the endgame, once people have done it 5 or 10+ times. So I don’t see any real, lasting benefit to spending too many resources there. Resources that are much better spent on improving the longevity of the endgame itself, which is where the overwhelming majority of game time will be spent.

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I think if you’re worried about Leagues or Seasons or special events, you can always say there is only one path, through the campaign, no skips. If you choose to use the skip option, your character is ineligble for whatever benefits you get for participating in the event.

I think the idea is, even if it were just one hour, you’re saying to players that wasting one hour per character is acceptable. I think that asking the player to sacrifice any amount of time in order to preserve rankings or online status, a thing that is not chased by all players, is not worth it. Either seperate the paths (competitive versus casual) or simply allow the ‘race’ to begin post campaign and start everyone at 50 or whatever level.

And regarding the campaigns current state… are you referring to dungeons or shared loot or what exactly as the ‘extensive ways’ in which the campaign has been altered to accomodate alts? Honest question, as I’m still new and trying to grasp how to speed up the alt levelling process.

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Some ideas in this thread that I thought would be nice (assuming implementation is no issue of course):

  • Changing timeline for each alt - maybe start as Rahyeh’s army and bring about the Void
  • Changing the map a la Diablo - now I’m pointing my mouse in the same direction every time I enter a particular map

I’m indifferent about replaying the campaign because I use it to try out my build before I commit to it and focus on gearing, but would be nice to see some variations. Hopefully the time warp can expand into a mechanic itself rather than just a doorway.

Also, spin-off idea: Heorot vs Rahyeh X Battlefront

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Personally, I would really hate for the campaign to change every time I play it. I kinda enjoy running through the campaign. It’s not because of the story I barely cared about in my first playthrough. I just try to perfect my speedrunning strats. Find the fastest routes through maps, when to make skill/gear swaps, trying to remember which responses to pick to get the shortest dialogues etc. Ironically I think playing through the story optimally is harder than farming monos.

And having the campaign randomly change every time would absolutely ruin that. I still wouldn’t care about the story even if it changed, that’s not the reason I make a new character in an ARPG after all. Having a different campaign for every class could be fun but with how much dev time that would take I doubt we’re getting anything in that direction any time soon.

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If it becomes the Default Way, then surely it was the correct/best way?

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Depends on the change right? Story point changes would not interest me, but the thing I hate right now is the campaign throws the exact same number of the exact same enemies at the exact same place every single run. Even if they just varied that a little, it would be 100% more fun and wouldn’t hurt anyone right?

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Changing the spawn points of enemys and the trigger events would require a lot of workhours so everyone who don’t want this change would be hurt because it takes away workhours froem, sorry, important stuff.

A change of pace would be nice for sure! I played the story enough times to be sick of it but simply changing mob spawns won’t change anything for me.

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