Just as I was typing, it happened. It’s not magic, it’s materiality.
I was saying: “Don’t bother dude… at first he denies it (“I stopped here”), but as soon as he realizes he’s being proved wrong, he’ll shift stances and start saying things like: [we’re talking about nodes, now you’re talking about skills”
Bam…
There’s a reason my first response to this thread was: “Oh no, Athamos turned into one of them”… Because I remember him giving good feedback and good advice to people before…
But this whole thread, man… Completely outta rail.
As several people told different lies, now I don’t remember who said what.
Some have said that ward is equivalent to HP builds.
Others lied that the tops don’t use Ward.
Others said that if an HP build does corruption 300 it’s fine, there’s no problem if the ward build does 800.
My premise is that ward has 800% more performance than HP builds, which is objectively true, even considering falconer which has good performance due to the fact that they doesn’t get hit and NOT due HP efficiency merit.
You define “use ward” as “generate 1 point of ward ever” so yeah, it’s a lie by your definition. Our definition is “ward is the primary form of defense and mitigation caused by Stacking ward in combat to prevent incoming damage.” by that definition, no its not a lie because none of the top builds are ward Stacking for a primary form a defense.
We said that corruption 300 is the baseline for being viable. We also gave examples of non-ward (by our definition) builds that can do 800c+ you just don’t want a single point of ward on your character period.
That’s subjectively true, and objectively false. There are plenty of HP builds that perform better than ward builds. But I keep forgetting that if there’s a single speck of ward it’s a “ward build” by your standards. So I can see why you subjectively think that.
And alas, the warrior was defeated, and all the community came together and sang a brief song to celebrate their victory;
In the realm of comments, so wild and bright,
Keyboard warriors duked it out day and night.
But one day they realized, with a sudden alarm,
Their arguments online did more harm than charm.
So they gathered 'round with a sheepish grin,
And decided it was time to reign it all in.
They unplugged their keyboards, bid them farewell,
No more digital battles, oh what a tale to tell!
Instead of harsh words, they chose wit and jest,
Realizing kindness was truly the best.
In the land of pixels, they found a new game,
Where laughter and joy were their claim to fame.
I wont discuss the merit of the numbers, I really dont know if ward has this much advantage in 1.1 cycle, and to me the nerfs were really heavy. Builds that use low life with exsanguinous and last steps have a hard time now. But are still good, I think HP builds are comparable now.
The problem is broken interactions, and we still have them, you can nerf ward to the ground to many of the played builds, but if you dont invest in a proper Q&A team to preview some of these obvious broken things players will always abuse them.
At the end of the day you will nerf and make some of your playerbase unhappy, while others that dont care to always abuse will discover new broken interactions and only play them.
Its pointless to give any feedback concerning balance around here, because (white knights) players will twist your whole topic without knowing the game and the OP things.
First they use a ladder against you when this ladder shows that there are builds abusing the new broken interactions this cycle.
You clearly know about the broken things in this cycle, while the others are happy to troll saying stupid things, but … how can I blame any of them, 300 corruption is their threshold.
Things like this shouldnt be in the game. I havent tested nor seen this new shield, but it clearly has the potential to be new shiny toy many will like to abuse. Abusing ward once again.
Falconer builds that only have HP (not really, as they dont get hit, they go around 2k HP) are a joke, stacking Silver shrould and playing like immortals. This break the whole philosophy of the game, as they dont need to invest in many defensive layers and they dont need to care about 1-shots, against many other regular builds that have all this concern.
People see a HP falconer going high corruption or arena wave and they dont even know that all that is possible due to a obvious broken interaction. Devs should have know about these things, but I stopped trying to understand why they let these things in game for so much time.
It’s not pointless, but using incorrect information, black/white logic, broad sweeping assumptions, wilful ignorance, misdirection, and sticking fingers in ears and saying Lalalalalala to drown out the corrections is pretty pointless …
And resorting to derogatory terms and name-calling isn’t going to get the folks you’re referring to to take you any more seriously.
300-400 corruption is the official threshold according to the lead developer at EHG, he’s said so many times on his weekly livestream.
And nobody claims the game is perfect in this thread, nobody said there aren’t broken builds and interactions … I’m not sure why you are bringing that up? The OP clearly claimed multiple times that HP was not viable. And that’s just false.
Not sure why you are making stuff up about the posts here in the thread, when it’s available for everyone to read and review.
But I think this discussion is basically concluded. Everyone seems tired of responding to “Lalalala I can’t hear you because my fingers are in my earholes” type responses anyway …
Makszi covered everything else I wanted to say so I’ll just touch on this point. OPs issue was never with “broken builds” so no one addressed them. Yes, there are absolutely broken interactions on both sides of the Ward/HP debate. But outside of those fringe cases, they’re pretty well balanced now. And OPs issue was “ward in general should not be on his ‘warrior’ class.” before devolving into a tirade about how ward builds are necessary to clear 1000 corruption (not true), 'warrior’s need to “stack INT” (not true), and other random goalpost shifting arguments. You can read through the over 100 posts and see how he hasn’t had a coherent argument this entire time.
But yeah, no one is saying there aren’t broken interactions, but it hasn’t come up because it’s irrelevant to OPs defense.
Not necessarily. There is a reason why there is an XOR (exlusive or) used in logic or software development.
In an “or” statement, one or all conditions can be true.
In an “xor” statement, only one condition can be true.
In an “and” statement, all conditions have to be true.
Where do you find a definition that “or” in normal language is defined strictly for an exclusive meaning?
No one has issues with people giving feedback. The problem is when people go “lalalalala I’m not listening!” and calling people liars just because they’re told that their feedback is based on false assumptions and lack of understanding of how the game works.
Feedback is good. Throwing a tantrum because you don’t understand the game is not feedback though.
Ok firstly WoW and Last Epoch are COMPLETLY different genres of game so the comparison there is wild.
I do however partially agree with you that Ward is definatly considerably more powerful than HP as a tool for effective health.
I am not discounting HP Builds at all, they are plenty strong enough to reach high level corruption however ward can just push the limit so much more if you build correctly, especially when you start getting 2+LP Affixes (Appropriate Ones) on HP to WPS (Ward Per Second) uniques. You are able to maintain most of your DR and can get 2x if not more ward than you can HP.
I am not sure about the endurance being on the top of the HP Bar. Endurance is rediculously strong at the moment, i mean it is a flat 60% damage reduction at cap which is extremely easy to achieve and most builds can get the threshold around 1k quite easily with around a 3k life (This is obviously mid-tier gear which is what the majority of players will achieve). Having a 60% flat hp reduction for the first 1k HP would be insanely powerful.
Also with endurance (Someone correct me if I am wrong here) I believe that if you have say 3k hp and 1k endurance threshold and you take a hit for 3k damage, then that last 1000 damage will actually be reduced by 60% meaning you only take 2.4k damage effectly saving your life.
Overall I think HP/Endurance is a reasonably good place at the moment and ward is still a little too strong in the late game. This is probably more to do with items than anything else, I just cannot seem to see any items that scale endurance threshold enough to break that barrier, even with high end uniques.
Ward on the other hand has items like Exsanguinous and Boneclamor Barbute. This gives you multiple ways to increase WPS, intel scaling Retention via a percentage means the more WPS you have the more you get from your intel. There are no items that scale HP or give you significant amounts of Threshold that even compare with what is available to Ward.
If I was going to do anything I would probably rework the Ward Decay Threshold/WPS Affixes by increasing there effectiveness slightly. Then tune down the HP > WPS uniques and Boneclamor Barbute so that they do not scale so high. This would bring Ward to a closer level with Endurance
IF and this is a big IF they were to make Endurance on the TOP of the HP pool instead of the bottom then it would need to start at say 15%, cap at 30% and probably increase threshold gains by 30-50%. This would mean that you are taking more actual damage but you have more of your HP protected. If it was to stay at 60%, then 1k threshold with Life Leach would make you almost immortal. Even this I am not too sure about still seems rather strong, hard one to determine the best way to implement.
This is false. All top 3 builds have ward as additional layer of defense. Falconer has bone clamor barbute, forge guard has grim constitution and sorcerer is using many ward passives.
I was confused at this, but ill just point the falconer gets almost 0 ward from his clamor.
That item gives you ward based on your necro res, that character does not even have capped necro res. He uses the item solely for the dex and int which both buff ballista.
I know. Everyone is shitting on op, because of his absolute statemens. While there are pure life builds out there, most life builds are better if you add ward to it and make them hybrid.
As I said in one of my replies. Most everyone who was replying to OP, myself included, are referring to “ward as the primary layer of defense.” not being in the top of the Leaderboards. We focused on those builds because OP was talking about how “ward is 800% more effective that HP”.
Ward as an extra layer of defense (like Endurance, Armor, Resistance, Etc.) but not the primary form of mitigation is in a lot of places. Which is OPs problem. He wants 0 ward on his ‘warrior’ in any way, shape, or form. Which, as I said, is as stupid as if I were to say “I want 0 armor (the stat, not gear) on my ‘Wizard’ in any way, shape, or form.”
