Mana Regen Needs A Rework (We NEED Inherent Mana Regeneration if we are going to have 3,000+ Mana Pools)

General
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Mana regeneration stat in LE has always felt lackluster. Even if you stack it you don’t get any meaningful levels of mana regen. This stems from there being no “Inherent Mana” regen from your mana pool.

D2, PoE etc… All have “Inherent mana regeneration” where you get mana regen just from having more mana. Then the “Mana regeneration” stat actually does something.

Furthermore with new content as LE has evolved this stat is extremely outdated. Items now granting massive amounts of mana where mana pools are over 2,000-3,000+ and we have only 20 mana regen per second. It doesn’t work.

On top of that with more items or ways of having “Damage goes to mana” or ways to have there just isn’t enough ways to replenish this resource.

  • We can debate how much Inherent mana regen should be but there needs to be something.

  • I would suggest something like 4 inherent mana per second per 100 mana. You have 500 mana you have 20 mana regen. If you have 1,000 mana you have 40 mana regen. Then if you add in 100% increased mana regen now have 80 mana regen.

Mana feels really far behind where LE actually is. Zero harm in builds having 100’s of mana regen per second and this opens up even more build creation and hopefully even more damage to mana archetypes like we have in other games.

I’d just like to get to meaningful levels of mana regen especially as the game has evolved where it’s required to replenish 2-3,000 mana pools or archetypes of some or all damage goes to mana in the near future.

Edit - As others have pointed out the Attunement stat could use an update as well. Many players feel that attunement is the worst attribute. Maybe if it had more function than just 2 mana per attunement.

Also perhaps a new affix could work a new hybrid affix like 25% mana regeneration and + 3 mana per sec. Or some idols with that or gear. This way the flat mana per sec helps scale the mana regeneration like Health regen does.

Edit 2 - Just thought of a new cool item idea where Health regen becomes Mana regen! That could be a really interesting item for Mana archetypes. Then have 30-50% damage goes to mana on the item as well. Time to create a new Unique.!

PS - NO we don’t need to increase the mana cost of skills. I know someone will make this bad take. It’s perfectly fine if you have invested in Mana/Regen that your mana doesn’t move or if it does then quickly replenishes to full. This enhances many different build archetypes as we see in other ARPGs.

If playing a Mana build with 2,500 mana and 250 mana regen per second still take me 10 seconds to get back to full. Which would be reasonable.

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Mana was in a rough spot a while ago, but I think with the latest few changes to mana regen (which are quite some patches ago) it got better and better. I solved my “mana issues” on a lot of buidls by investing a few affixes into mana regen and going from 8 to 10 or 11 mana regen already feels very noticeable, especailly when you jump from mob pack to mob pack and sometimes you have a few seconds of downtime.

I think the only thing with mana regen that kinda bothered me, the slots it is available on. It is only on accessories and especially on amulets its very hard to justify against things like crit multi or penetration.

So I don’t think mana regen is in as a bad spot as you make it, but I do agree with one thing you mentioned though. Maximum Mana should slightly affect your mana regeneration, but not so much that just stacking max mana solvign all your sustain issues.

Maybe something like reducing base mana regen from 8 to 6 + 2% mana/sec or 7 + 1% mana/sec. This might affect early game a bit too much, but would result in much better results for midgame and endgame.

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You aren’t talking about Mana Archetype builds though.

20 mana per sec is just way to low. If I had 100 mana per sec it would still be to low. So I’m not sure what you are suggesting since no amount of mana regeneration in it’s current state helps since we don’t have “Inherent Mana regeneration”

Even stacking all the mana regeneration in the game it doesn’t do anything. You could have 500% mana regeneration but 500% of nothing is still nothing.

I think it’s in a pretty bad spot as the last few seasons significantly changed the game. Mana regeneration just doesn’t match current items, builds or content. There is no ways to scale it with new items, builds or gear.

Yea it’s a basic function in most ARPGs called “Inherent mana regen”

It never will as I mentioned in my last edit.

LE is in a spot where we need 100’s of mana regen per second. Especially if we want to support these archetypes. We have the gear but the formula is all wrong due to no inherent mana regen.

How long should it take to replenish a Mana pool of 2,500 or 3,000 or 4,000+ next season?

D2 ES sorc, PoE MoM builds it’s like we are almost there in LE with gear/items/skills but then Mana is very very very outdated. So the archetype isn’t supported fully until we fix this issue.

Health regen has made wonderful strides but mana regen needs a lot of love.

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Inherent mana is a good idea, but 100 mana/s sounds ridiculous. Are you trying to exploit something?

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He’s suggesting a hybrid of what you want, % of max mana per sec & what we have currently (flat X per sec + y% of max mana per sec).

Good thing the base regen isn’t 0 then. Hyperbolic comments are dumb, sorry.

I know you know how it works at the moment compared to how PoE works. LE has “inherent” regen, it’s just a fixed amount.

I get why the devs have done it & I think it’s good for there to be different ways of doing it in the genre. The devs have also given us different ways of dealing with the constraint (zero cost skills, mana on use, even mana per pot use) & I’m not saying you’re “wrong” to want more regen if you’re using an expensive skill, but I personally don’t think that they should “cave” too much. They want you to have mana constraints as a puzzle to solve which I think is a good thing. And yes, builds going for zero mana skills is one way to solve that particular puzzle.

Of course, but tbh, that’s our job as players. Find things that work & “exploit” the fuck out of them.

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It has nothing to do with exploiting did you read nothing? How long should it take Mana archetype builds with 3,000 or 4,000 mana next season to refill their mana pool? It’s not ridiculous in other ARPGs and builds that scale Mana need that much.

If EHG is going to keep implementing attunement Mana archetypes via items we need to fix mana regeneration to support them.

This build archetypes need a new inherent mana regeneration to support them. Or some form of flat mana per second so mana regeneration actually does something.

The whole point of inherent mana regen is so you can properly scale mana to 100’s a second.

In PoE I can easily get 200-300 mana a second etc it scales due to inherent mana regen because as you get 2,000 and 3,000 or 4,000 mana pools you need that much mana regen. The same goes for D2 if you are playing an ES sorc. I’m trying to support this build archetype in LE.

Also you need it for MoM builds aka Mind over mana aka damage goes to mana first.

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I didn’t make one. 500% of nothing is still nothing. What I said is true. You need the flat amount of mana per second to be a meaningful amount, WHICH IT ISN"T. Which is why even 500% doesn’t help. Try to follow along.

Inherent mana regeneration scales with the amount of mana. This is how inherent mana regeneration works. If it’s a fixed amount it’s not inherent mana regeneration. Stop the semantics. You know what I mean and I gave examples.

Only if you don’t want to enable Mana Archetypes. Also recent seasons have drastically changed LE. It’s a different game now and Mana regeneration is OUTDATED for it.

I love how you gloss over everything I said, you haven’t made any actual points in your response to game design or the future design of LE and where it’s heading that I posted.

You also didn’t answer the question.

I don’t know why you are like this. My post is obviously trying to fix mana because it’s outdated from the new game we are now playing and heading. I am trying to support Mana archetypes and attunement builds. They currently don’t have support in the new game.

Not sure how suggesting a basic ARPG mechanic is exploiting lol.

PS - please stick to what I’m talking about instead of lil jabs because you are bored. It doesn’t help the game. You often manage to avoid the entire conversation and fixate on something unrelated.

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It’s not true, we don’t have 0 base mana regen. That is a demonstrable fact. Try & keep up.

The thing is, you’re using words which have meaning outside of their usial meaning. “Inherent mana regen” isn’t a common concept in arpgs either so it’s not like you’re using a term specific to this particular niche. Inherent means “existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute”, so "inherent mana regen is just as valid description to the current flat mana regen system as it is for PoE’s. And this is where my point about different ways of doing things being good comes in. The devs want mana in LE to be more of a challenge/puzzle for the players to solve than it is in PoE.

If you can’t say what you mean, you can’t mean what you say, details are important.

Yeah, that’s a fair point, what was reasonable “before” may not be reasonable now or in the future. Though mana builds were a thing “before”, it’s not like they’ve just recently appeared in the last few seasons.

I haven’t glossed over everything, I just don’t entirely agree with everything. You make a fair point about changes to the meta & maybe the devs should change how easy it is to get mana though I personally feel that just changing to PoE’s way of doing it would be a disappointment.

That’s because I don’t know the answer. % of max would make it easier to regen to full on high mana builds without making it ridiculously quick on low mana builds (which are probably the majority), it just feels like a cop out if they did that.

It’s just how I am, just like you’re (or come across like you are) on the bleeding edge of min-maxing & anything less isn’t a valid player/build/etc.

TBF, there’s very few of them, like 1.

Neither does hyperbole.

TBH, I kinda prefer Heavy’s mixed approach, I also think that Attunement should probably increase regen multiplicatively.

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If the value is so low it doesn’t matter then it’s effectively zero. The base mana regen is a number so low it’s nothing. Try to keep up.

The thing is you aren’t discussing the topic. So what you write after this on this point is irrelevant and how you troll.

I provided details you ignored them. You always do that. You fixate on very specific points derailing the actual point. This is how you derail many threads sadly. I’ll take the bump to the thread though so maybe Devs can see this and hopefully they have plans to address the Mana problem heading into next season and how outdated it is.

It’s actually the ENTIRE point of the thread. We are talking about supporting Mana Archetypes. There has been drastic changes to the game and next season we are adding in another mechanic with corrupted items.

They have because of new items. In the past 1,000 mana for a build was a lot. Now we have 1 item giving 1,000 mana. It’s a different game. A game where we will have 3,000 and 4,000 mana or more.

You glossed over the entire reason for the thread which is why you don’t understand it. You are disagreeing with things that aren’t related to the thread. Then making crude statements like of course it’s to exploit. It just makes you look small and unable to carry a decent discussion.

Okay now you finally brought up an interesting thought ON TOPIC!!! Congratulations! Why is it a disappointment? It’s the same in D2 is that also a disappointment? It’s a tried and true mechanic in very popular ARPGs that enables Mana Archetypes. It’s simple and has worked very well in ARPGs for decades.

Then just say that because that question is actually the foundation of the discussion. Since we are talking about Mana archetypes builds moving forward that have enormous Mana pools and are stacking attunement/mana.

It doesn’t help the game or forums though when threads are derailed and actual topics that could use a good discussion don’t get one. You are an intelligent person, use it for good.

Just because you think something is hyperbole doesn’t make it that. It’s your projection of the situation and you can’t see past it sadly and take a birds eye view and discuss the core of the topic.

Ding ding ding, You now made your 2nd thought on topic!! Attunement could use a change in itself. This stat is outdated and many view it as the worst attribute. Since the thread is about enabling Mana archetypes. This point is a good one and should be discussed. I knew you had it in you.

The problem though is Mana needs some way to increase the flat mana per second. Just like health regen. We can scale Health regen because there is flat + health regen. Since just mana regen % won’t work as we still need the flat value to increase somehow. So we can get to meaningful levels of mana per second (which is 100’s of mana per second to support this archetype.)

  • Perhaps we just need a new hybrid affix like 25% mana regeneration and + 3 mana per sec. Or some idols with that or gear.
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To be fair, I think his point of “LE solves mana in a different way than PoE” is a valid one.
PoE has inherent mana regen, but also 99.99% of builds in PoE don’t actually use all their mana to cast spells, they reserve it for auras. So they end up with 2k mana and 200 mana/s but their actual mana pool is simply 100 mana. Or even 0 mana and they use life or ES to cast stuff.
LE doesn’t have that. You use your full mana pool to cast and that’s it.

This means that a full mana pool in PoE means you have about enough to cast your spells and maybe spam one, often you don’t have enough regen to spam your spells for a very long time.

If LE had the same mana regen system, you could just wait for your mana bar to fill up, go to a boss and spam 100 meteors or some other high damage/high cost skill and basically one shot bosses.

I agree that the current regen isn’t enough for the much higher mana pools you get to these days. But you can fix that by simply bumping the numbers on your base regen, mana regain skills and mana affixes.

You can still use the same tools you were using to solve mana 2 seasons ago (and mana issues were fully solved at that time), you just need to adjust them to the new max mana values. You don’t need to actually change the whole system.

The main issue I see with your solution is that half the stuff that has been used to solve mana will become irrelevant. Mana strike will become irrelevant. Void Well, which was a pretty good node to solve mana issues on VK, becomes irrelevant.
The only puzzle to solve mana left will be where you can stick max mana nodes, because those will be incredibly more powerful than flat mana recovery.

Ultimately, reaching something like 200 mana/s should be hard to achieve because of those high damage/high cost skills, which are balanced around a lower mana regen. If you have so much mana that you can just spam dozens of them at once, then they will need to be nerfed (or added a cooldown) to compensate.

tldr; you don’t need to change the whole system (and possibly the skills balance due to it), you just need to update the current system to be on par with the new reality.

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This was only valid in LE as an old game. Now LE has drastically changed. Mana pools have quadrupled. There are new attunement and mana archetype items. So now we have a new problem to solve if we are going to support this archetype.

The reason why D2 and PoE do it is because it’s simple and works across the board while enabling Mana archetypes. If you invest in Mana you get a reward. LE though if you invest in Mana you are creating a problem.

We want more build creation and players playing more builds.

This is not true. In PoE 2 playing a Mana archetype spamming spells your Mana doesn’t move. Which is required because if you are playing MoM (Mind over Matter) Then 100% of your damage is going to mana before health. So you need Mana to absorb damage and recover after that damage. If spells drain your mana then the build doesn’t work.

I’m a huge fan of Mana Archetypes such as D2 ES sorc and MoM builds in PoE 2. So in these games you can’t have spells draining your mana since your mana is your HP. You have enormous Mana pools to counter this problem. So it works.

We already do that though since Mana stacking has become an option and can get over 2,000 mana currently. Next season we will be able to get 3,000-4,000 mana. Which is the entire point of my thread.

How are we going to support this new Mana Archetype moving forward that has 3,000-4,000 mana? What happens when builds in LE have 5,000 Mana? We keep adding more systems, affixes, primordial items etc… However the support for this Mana archetype isn’t there.

I don’t think you are forward looking. Is 20 mana regen per sec enough for a build with 4,000 mana? Currently 20 mana regen per second is a heavy investment so you are saying it should take over 3 minutes to refill your mana from zero?

As we add new items and corruption there will be even more ways to have damage goes to mana before health. How do we support these builds with outdated mana regeneration?

I’m trying to discuss the world where we have attunement builds with 3,000 and 4,000 mana next season. What will the following season be, 5,000 mana? How long do we wait to address this?

I’m asking a lot of questions because it’s the main focus of the discussion.

Can you give me an example based on what I’m saying above? I don’t see how that is possible.

They actually don’t though. The finally become MORE relevant and can be utilized to fill the main roll of sustaining MoM type builds.

I actually would love to see low life item that increases your mana instead of ward. We are finally starting to open up the Mana archetype. Where your entire build revolves around your Mana pool.

I just don’t think this is the case if we are going to support the Mana archetype. Also many mana builds do what you are saying. They have 2,000+ mana and spam their entire mana pool on the boss 1 shotting them. It’s an ARPG is that a bad thing? Idk but not sure if that is a problem that needs to be fixed either.

So what is that? How do we enable 4,000 mana pool builds where 100% of damage goes to mana. Again, I want you to be forward looking. Please suggest how you would tackle that.

A build not using life leech and is 100% reliant on Mana for everything they do. No one bats an eye at 1,000 life per second and life leech but 250 mana per second is too much? Doesn’t make logical sense.

If mana regen is going to take the same role as health regen in a build. It needs to be on par for this archetype. I’m just really trying to focus on Mana Archetypes and supporting them. Giving players agency to play a really fun Archetype that people enjoy. Where the entire focus of the build is around Attunement/Mana.

I feel like you aren’t trying to address the same problem I am. So solve the problem above.

Edit - Just thought of a new cool item where Health regen now is Mana regen!! Then also have 30-50% damage goes to mana as well. That could work!! New Unique time! I’ll make that item and send the design to EHG.

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Sure, I get what you’re saying for those specific archetypes. But the problem with the way D2 and PoE1/2 handle mana regen is that it’s pretty much irrelevant for 99% of the builds.
In D2 no build outside of ES sorc invest a single point in energy because mana regen isn’t an issue in any build.
In PoE1/2 every build outside of MoM builds will reserve 90-100% of their mana pool for auras.

Those games simply don’t actually have a mana puzzle to solve outside of a select few. Most builds don’t even bother with mana pots once they’re done with the campaign or even just halfway through it.

Mana regen isn’t the only solution to mana issues. You have skills that provide mana recovery as well. Skills like Focus or Mana Strike. Passives like Void Well. They’re all part of the mana solving puzzle as well.
You need to update those as well and maybe in some cases add a %recovery rather than a flat one.

Sure. You can make it so the base regen is now 16. Mana strike gives you double the mana it now gives. Focus gives double the mana it now gives. Void Well gives double the mana it now gives. The affix for mana on pots now gives twice what it now gives.
Basically, just adjust the values of the previous mana solving tools to reflect the new values. Maybe change some of them to a percent base value, so you don’t need to keep updating them all the time.

It’s just a matter of scale. Mana solving tools give you X mana/s that was enough to solve issues for a 2k mana pool. You’ll now get a 4k mana pool, so you double the mana solving tools and you end up with the same waiting period.

Why would they become more relevant? Mana Strike has a base of 15 mana recovery. You can get it up to about 60-80 mana. It becomes irrelevant when you’re already regenerating 200+ mana/s.
Any flat mana recovery will become meaningless because all your regen will come from the much higher “inherent mana regen”.

It’s a matter of balance. They can already do that, but then they have to wait longer until they can do it again. They can’t just chain bosses and do 10 bosses per minute. They have a downtime until they are ready for the boss again.

The issue here is that there is supposed to be a choice you make. Do you want a high cost/high damage skill? Well, you’re going to have mana issues if you just want to spam it. This is because high cost/high damage skills are much stronger than lower cost/lower damage ones.
High cost skills aren’t balanced to be spammable. You’re not supposed to cast meteor in the same way you cast fireball.

Otherwise there is no point in ever choosing a low cost skill. High cost skills will always be superior to low cost ones and LE might as well remove the low cost ones from the game because no one will play them except for meme builds.

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It becomes more relevant because you need 1,000’s of mana regen to support that archetype.

Is 1,000 health per second too much? Is 8% life leech to much? It’s very common for life based builds to being capable of replenishing 1,000’s of life per second through regen and leech. So if we have a Mana build then Mana needs to do that.

Maybe we need to add in Mana leech to this game. That also could work.

I just don’t know how you expect a build with 4,000 mana and 100% damage goes to mana to refill their mana pool in fights while taking 1,000’s of damage.

As this discussion goes on it become even more apparent how far behind Mana is in LE. We don’t even have Mana leech either.

It’s really not. It’s about supporting Mana Archetypes.

There will always be builds that 1 shot bosses and can do it an unlimited amount of times however fast they want. It’s an ARPG. There are bossing builds for a reason. I’m not really talking about that though and my suggestions don’t effect that at all either. Maybe 1 more bossing build emerges, is that a bad thing? Nope!

Wrong the issue is this…

Also thing this is a great idea to enable Mana Archetypes…

You have to get on the same page and work with the topic. You are fixated on balance, I’m not talking about balance I’m talking about providing tools to enable Mana Archetypes moving forward. Lets discuss that obstacle first then you can talk about balance after.

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You’re focusing on a single archetype without considering the implications it will have to every other build in the game.

Let’s say that we add all your solutions to the game and 1000 mana/s is now easy to achieve. Why would anyone select fireball when they can now cast meteors at the same rate and deal 10x more damage?
There would be no reason at all to use half the skills currently in the game that are only appealing because you can actually spam them vs having to wait for mana regen on meteor.

Every build will simply become the highest damage skill in that mastery because you can spam it as fast as any other lower damage skill.

We can’t. Because balance will undo the work you had to make to get over the first obstacle. Your solutions will simply make choices in every other archetype in the game irrelevant.

And I also gave you the solution that keeps balance. We had solutions to solve mana for builds with 2k mana pools. They worked fine. They just need to update their values for the new 4k pools by doubling their values or turning some of them % based (mana strike should be % based, for example).
No need for any new systems. A simple tweaking of the current numbers works perfectly.

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I don’t know why you are interjecting “easy” to achieve when it would take significant investment. Which is the point, you need to have a method to scale for this archetype and since it would require an investment it wouldn’t effect other builds like you think.

No one does now lol. I think they need to fix fireball don’t you.

That’s just not true.

You can. You have to build the house from the ground up. Balance is a roof top issue. You work on core game design and fun first. Key word fun. You need to have design that enables builds. Then after you have those builds you discuss balance. That’s how it works.

Disagree

20 mana per second takes 100 seconds. I hardly call that a solution or enabling Mana Archetypes.

Disagree

That won’t help or enable more Mana archetype builds across different classes.

Disagree, they don’t work. You aren’t enabling Mana Archetypes, or new builds. Which is kinda sad. The introduction of new systems, items and content require new ways to scale with those systems/items etc.

You still just jumping around and not really addressing the core issue.

Hopefully as we get closer to hype week EHG has some ways to increase mana regen for builds with 3,000-4,000 mana next season. Maybe corruption is the answer and through some conversion we can get 100’s or 1,000’s of mana regen.

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If that happened, why would any build have low cost skills as the spammable/filler skill?