Check the name of the forum you’re posting in before talking lmao.
I’ve never made a thread on this subject before. If there’s new threads every week on this subject, it’s probably a good indicator of something…
And you completely ignored his point. It’s not “half the people don’t like the system, half the people like the system”. With the other examples you’ve provided, a lot of people really like auto looting shards, auto storing shards, and trading.
With this it’s like half the people don’t like the other system, and the other half doesn’t actually care or also dislikes it (says that), but defends it existing for various reasons like wanting to gatekeep, or just wanting to argue.
I haven’t seen a single person give an example of how it’s a good system that provided them with a fun/better experience in the earlygame. While I could give plenty of examples of how the other things you listed gave me a better experience.
You’re missing where this is a scenario where the creators of Chess have a forum with a “Feedback and Suggestions” section where they actively take feedback about what people think about the rules of chess, and the rules of chess constantly change every few weeks or months, often based on feedback.
Like smaller, higher density monoliths was feedback they got from a bunch of people in 0.9.
Thats got nothing to do with playing the game or not.
The existance of a place to provide feedback is great, everyone can provide opinion & feedback but at the end of the day its up to the developers - we actually have zero say in the matter… Its 100% their baby. If they dont want to change the rules of the game then they dont have to. Just because they have provided us with an outlet to say what we do or do not like doesnt mean anything at all. They are not beholden to us in any way or form.
Just like if we dont like something in the game we dont have to continue playing it.
Yes that’s obvious, but then why are you here constantly saying “it’s the devs decision and they did it this way just shut up”. If you really think that, you have no reason to comment, and you can just see what the devs do. Instead you’re just trying to silence feedback for some weird reason by saying it’s pointless.
If the same thread pops up every week from different people, and gets positive votes, that’s good feedback for the devs.
A story event that has 0 impact on the story, whatsoever. It’s a story event, only in that it’s at the end of a quest. I had a cutscene in a game, once, that displayed my character with his current gear, the game still allowed me to change it…it was even at the end of a quest The point being, the entire argument has been based around “newbies need to experiment, because they don’t know any better”. Mastery selection is even more of a big deal (than skill selection), as far as how your class/build will play out. So why are we not allowing that to change as well? Or, are the goalposts moving (once again) and it’s about experimentation for everyone, not just newbies or casuals? Because the counter to “it’s not a big deal” has been “well it is to new or casual players”. Once again, this is sounding less about wanting to experiment with anything, to see how thing play/if it’s enjoyable, and more about “I don’t like it, I want it changed, NOW!” – ala my 5 year old not liking his vegetables at dinner.
Yes lets never try and get anything changed becuase EHG made decisions and are only two options are leave, or make our own game. Tf is the post dude lmao, EHG have been changing multiple things they’ve previously said they were fine with.
Nice bad faith argument. Mastery is completely different from skills. It can’t even be changed in the first place so there’s no issue with people wanting to experiment, because you just can’t. It’s already “if you want to try another mastery, make a new character”. And there’s wayyyyyyy more things to try within a mastery than there are within a skill. If you couldn’t change skills at all after trying them, that would be a MASSIVE problem that would get even more feedback (tbh I probably wouldn’t touch the game if that was a thing, almost every character I end up playing something different in lategame when my damage starts falling off). If you try a skill, and simply don’t like how it plays, you have like 19 other skills you can mess with within your mastery. You’re somewhat encouraged to try different skills, they just then penalize you for it.
Correct. Why is that relevant to someone bring up feedback though? Are you saying the devs dont want to hear feedback to inform their decisions on the game? What are you contributing to a discussion on anything with the game, if all you’re gonna end up saying is ‘well teh devs dont have to do this’. Like, we know that, no one here is trying to take them to court becuase they aren’t changing something, people are just giving their opinion on a thing they’d like changed, as generally a feedback/suggestions space on a forum isn’t where people go to say ‘i really liked this’ with no ‘however’ or ‘but’ thats just how people are.
So what is your point with this post? Beyond just ‘please shut up’ it seems to have nothing its contributing. Like yuou say, everyone can post feedback, maybe accept that and not get in so much disagreement with what someone suggests, that you resort to ‘well the devs dont have to listen to you’. To use your own phrasing, peoples thoughts/opinions are 100% their own, you have zero say in them.
Like lets be real here, you and penguin have you resorted to ‘if you dont like, shut up and stop playing’, it’s pointless and unnessecary people have made good points about why they feel like they do about this, if you’re responses can’t be about the mechanic the thread is about, and the poitns are about, and instead have to just go to ‘well the devs dont have to change anything’, or ‘well tell me why mastery choices shouldnt be changed’, it’s pretty clear you arent here to actually discuss a piece of feedback, and instead, for whatever reason, are solely posting in here to shut down people who want things to be diffent, solely because they want it to be different. Simply just, dont post if you have nothing to say lmao
I have seen that specific “issue” brought up a few times. Here or on discord. People that did not realise mastery was final or wanted to change it because they did not want to re level a character.
For the exact same reasons mentioned in this thread even – being new, and not realizing how a Mastery played and wishing to change it, as well as the desire to switch between playstyles/experiment without having to level new characters. Yes, the actual things might not be similar, but the requests themselves are more than ‘surface level’.
So just because the devs made it this way, you’re fine with it? Funny, that…
The difference is that the devs view mastery the same way they view class choice, that’s what they’ve said before when people have brought up mastery being changed, so in trend with how you’re approaching this discussion, I have to ask why you think a skill choice is the same as a person picking there class at the start of a game, thats a wierd thing to think my dude, cant believe you do, can you now defend why we can’t change classes with only 5 minutes of work in end game to get all our passive back?
I mean I wouldn’t care if the devs made it so you could respec mastery, tbh I would be in favor of that. However it’s completely incomparable to deciding something can be changed, but you get punished for doing so, in a system where you definitely will want to change it to try new things.
Like Aurora said, you’re the one moving the goalposts trying to make this about mastery which is a completely different situation. And you’re strawmanning me on top of that. This was pretty accurate:
Or be called a gatekeeper, part of the problem, have their reading comprehension called into question or be called part of the question. I was surprised that “no-one” called “anyone else” a white knight…
It’s also an arbitrarily placed gameplay mechanic, given the devs view the masteries as the classes, not the base classes…
Last Epoch? What does that have to do with anything? I thought I might highlight the forum name for you, just in case.
I think the devs might have said something along the lines of wanting choices to “matter” or have weight, but I could be thinking of something else.
I don’t really have a problem with it being brought up from time to time as it shows the devs that for some part of the community (totally not 50%, but anyway) it’s still a point of friction. But given they’ve not tweaked it further than they have, it’s probably not enough to change their “vision” (or whatever it is that caused them to have it in in the first place & the various minimum skill levels/thresholds, accelerated xp gains/etc where they are rather than some different value).
And people still complain about it or ask how they can change it (presumably because they didn’t read the “this can’t be changed” warning, though fair play if their English isn’t great).
But surely if you’re going to respec skills, you’ll be doing more than one at a time? The permutations (/combinations? Always get them confused) are probably more with skills & skill points than passives, passive points & masteries. Or is it a “bad faith argument” because you’re ok with it not being changeable but you aren’t ok with the skill level loss? Would that not be a bad faith argument? Or hypocrisy or something?
Well, probably around 14 or so (by “early game”/lvl 30-40 ish), but if that’s your threshold for reasonableness, fair enough.
So you’re ok with devs view on one thing but not ok with devs view on something else so there shouldn’t be people commenting on how unreasonable not being able to change mastery is but it’s totes fine doing the same thing about how egregiously soul destroying loosing a few skill levels for “a while” is.
No, he’s drawing a parallel between the two, not moving goalposts, strawmanning/gaslighting you nor anything else. Certainly not calling you part of the problem or questioning your ability to read (unless I, ironically, missed that due to getting a bit bored & just skimming).
Well, and not only that, but it’s a tad bit humorous to be called out for logical fallacies by someone who has based a large segment of their argument on an Appeal to Emotion “what about the children!!! (newbies/casuals)”…or Assuming Conclusion “people will quit over this”.
Masteries and Skills are not completely different situations. They are the same thing, just differing by degree. The time it takes to relevel a skill is no different than the time it takes to relevel an entire character to try a different mastery. Just because having them the same hurts your position, doesn’t make it untrue. Although claiming to be completely fine with one arbitrary stance the devs have taken, but vehemently in opposition of another is rather disingenuous…although humorous at the same time.
There he goes again with the reading comprehension, failing simple context clues. Oof.
My bad, I should have said the actual upvote % from the reddit thread about this, 70%. You’re right it’s not 50%, it’s a good deal more of the playerbase that it annoys.
Well yeah, but it’s something more along the lines of wanting to switch your class. It’s a larger choice that has a TON of options within it to mess with, that you make a new character for a different one. Skills are specifically designed that you can swap them on the fly and try new ones as you unlock them (it’s not like you get every choice at the same time like mastery) and change them later if your build is weak, you just get punished when you change them early far more than later, and you’re more likely to want to change them early.
Yes?
What are you even talking about? It’s a bad faith argument because it’s comparing two different systems that work in completely different ways where one system doesn’t even have any elements of what I have an issue with from the other, and then saying that I’m a hypocrite for not complaining about the first system. It’s A) not comparable and B) something I would also be fine if they changed, I just don’t have as much of an issue with it.
When it’s not a good parallel to draw, and should be obvious.
He was straight up strawmanning me, you’re the one doing the gaslighting trying to say he wasn’t.
That’s not an appeal to emotion lmao. Someone else said “what about the children” not me, but there’s no emotional concern about new players like there is children IRL. It’s a pretty simple fact that a bad experience early in the game can drive away new players, which is not good for the game.
I almost did quit playing the patch over it. Sure that’s anecdotal, but I also know what I’m doing compared to newer players and it’s not unreasonable to assume that other players have similar negative experiences with the system when 400 other players on reddit upvote a post about the same issue, and plenty of people comment that they had issues with the system as a new player.
The reasons you level a different skill are completely different from the reasons you level a new mastery. You might go “wow this skill is bad/I specced bad nodes I want to change” but you don’t go “wow this mastery is bad I want to change”, because there’s a massive number of options within a mastery and a mastery can’t have fundamental mechanical issues like a skill can or have issues where it doesn’t synergize with the rest of your build. You also don’t progressively unlock masteries and want to try the new ones when you get them like you do skills.
Again, strawmanning me, even after I said I dislike being locked into masteries, it just doesn’t bother me as much because of the reasons I’ve given. It’s like choosing a class. How many people do you see saying they should be able to swap classes? How many people do you see saying they should be able to respec their LE character into a PoE character? This stuff isn’t the same as changing skills within a class in a game about mix and matching skills within a class.
No, I’m being deliberately obtuse/annoying to “score points” since this argument has long passed its usefulness (just as AuroraClaire, he/she/they/whatever will explain what I’m like as you’ve evidently not been here long enough). That is clearly not the same as being stupid or lacking in reading comprehension but I am curious to see just how far you’ll go.
Plus, there’s the occasional smidge of sarcasm in my posts, it’s a cultural thing.
If you could also get an accurate conversion ratio of redditors (specifically those who voted on that thread to owners of LE), yes. It’s not going to be 100%.
I don’t want to ruin your world view, but there is more to gaming (& life) than Reddit. I probably should have made sure you were sat down, not operating heavy machinery, driving, etc before telling you that, sorry.
It is, yes, but not being able to change your mastery and loosing skill points are have a certain amount of thematic overlap, certainly enough to use one as a parallel. But I know you disagree or can’t/won’t het it so I won’t belabour the point.
I was asking if it were hypocracy or possibly implying that it was hypocritical.
“Thank you for your feedback”.
Some people have posted that as a reason for asking if they could respec the mastery.
Wasn’t there also a doomsayer prediction, as recent as v0.8ish, around the inability to swap Masteries being something that would turn people away from the game? I distinctly recall Scarecrow mentioning that (just so I could finally be accurately accused of strawmanning…if it’s even a verb).
Cool story, stick to the point about it being “totally not 50%” of players who dislike this system.
What is your evidence >50% of people like it?
Disagree
Disagree
Yep.
Nice that all you did is say “they overlap”, while I gave a well detailed description of why I think they don’t, and none of those points were addressed.
And I wasn’t talking about you? What are you saying? I was saying pneguin was calling me a hypocrite not you.
TBH, with certain balance patches I could 100% see that being a thing.
But I already said I’m in favor of respeccing mastery, but it’s still a bad comparison because of how different it is. While you might go “this is bad I want to change”, it’s not something that you get a feeling of in a short playtime. That’s like something that happens when you push up to empowered monos and start hitting a wall and try a few different builds, none of which work, and then you look for guides online and see that everyone thinks Shaman is currently trash, and then you want to respec because getting back to the same point in empowered monos on another class is going to take ages. It’s very different from “wow I’ve played flame rush for 1 minute and dislike how this functions mechanically I want to use something else”.
