I feel like a lot of people are missing the point.
The campaign is incredibly easy. You don’t need a skill tree at all to complete it. That is NOT the point.
The campaign is also the place for new players to try different skills. The lack of XP in the early game is super detrimental to that. New players don’t know they don’t need to put points in their skills to win. They want to try different stuff - to test what is their best skill for them and their choice is restricted for no good reason. When you are at high level monoliths you can literally respec your full tree in 1 echo, but for some reason you can’t do it for new players, who need it a lot more.
Its stupid. It has been brought before. Its ignored.
I don’t think it’s a bad decision, I also don’t think it’s particularly egregious in terms of how punishing it is.
What part of (the bolded bit):
Didn’t mean that it takes 10-20 hours to get the skill points back that you lost by respeccing? 10-20 hours of gameplay is a really long time.
I thought we were talking about early game? I also thought we were talking about Glacier rather than a fire build.
The main thing i got was that he thought I was part of the problem because I disagree with his/your view point. Can I take it that you don’t know the phrase then?
By the devs 'cause that’s not how they want to do their game. I don’t always agree with them, but it is their game. The people that don’t like this particular thing bring it up every so often, as is their prerogative just as it’s mine (& others) to disagree.
The unbolded part right before that which makes it clear I’m obviously talking about a new player going through the entire campaign and trying new skills by respeccing multiple times when he unlocks them over the course of the campaign which can take a long time if you don’t know how to do your passives efficiently for unlocks and put like 35 points in your base class.
Again: reading, context.
I’m clearly responding to the “power comes from your weapon” saying that I use the same level 0 weapon for the entire campaign.
And yes I’m using Glacier, because it’s really strong for leveling. Not to mention the 140% more damage on Glacier applies if the second explosion is what procs the spreading flames, so I not only lost 50% of my hit damage, I lost 60% of my DoT damage which was doing most of the heavy lifting on clear.
Yeah I know understanding things isn’t your strong suit.
He’s saying you’re part of the problem because everything you post is from the perspective of a veteran player who knows what they are doing, and you ignore the perspective of a new player who makes poor choices and doesn’t know the game. And you’re gatekeeping while doing it. Therefore just because the system works for you, doesn’t mean it’s going to work for other people.
This is the key thing that people dont pay attention to. The reality is theres people with hundreds of hours in the game, who havent even tested out every node in a tree for a skill they use, because when it matters les, its harder to do, when it matters more, its easier to do but you dont want to heavily nerf yourself.
Thats not really a problem, who cares they have hundreds of hours in the game. But its a symptom of an underlying issue, that disproportionately hurts people new to the game, more than those who have played it.
Like llama said, its his prerogative to disagree with the opinion. The problem is the disagreements are never disagreeing that its bad for newplayers, and always that someone with experience doesnt need the change. I’d love to see ehg’s reasoning for why they think the game is enhanced for new players, by making them feel punished for experimenting.
There are lot of directions I don’t agree with either.
The tetris inventory is obsolete. Clicking to pick shards is meaningless chore. So many more…
But the respec option is different. I’ve yet to see a single good argument in defense of it. Considering how many problems currently exist in the beta its understandable why its ignored. But it is minor stuff like this that can hurt a first impression.
The gatekeeping of this game is so hard by the people that support it fanatically its absurd.
Shame they don’t realize how unbalanced it is because of their blind support.
Usually people like that, that support blindly, and have lack of understanding of anything apart from what they see 2 feet in front of them. The ones that follow builds 1:1, without looking at the bigger picture which is the game as a whole.
Maybe I’ve played less. (A bit more than 1000 hours). But at least I look at the game objectively.
The good, the bad and the ugly. It’s not gonna be the first ARPG to bite the dust after release.
Wolcen had the same fate. Couldn’t recover. Sadly with such fanatical gatekeeping devs would always get a wacky opinion from a core member, which actually has no idea how to look at things from a perspective.
We’re not talking about plopping a skill in your hotkeys and testing it. You’re complaining about having to relevel them. How many skill points did you get in that 30 seconds? Or, are you just moving the goalposts now?
It was easy to recognize how fundamentally bad Flame Rush was, so I swapped back pretty quick.
However if it felt like it could work and I wanted to play it, I’d be down to 3 from 7. And I was down to 3 from 7 on Glacier when I swapped back which was -50% hit damage and -60% spreading flames damage.
And how many skill points does that take? Where is your arbitrary cut off for “enough free experimentation, that I can gauge how a skill/build is going to play”? Some skills you don’t even get until 35, so you might not get enough points to ‘get a feel for it’ until 50+. Hell, Maelstrom could take as many as 10-12+ to get a feel for playability with duration, cost reduction, etc nodes…and that’s not even counting dmg nodes, to see if it works as a primary dmg dealing skill. So is that your cut-off? That’s quite a ways away from your *early game". This sounds like a dangerous slippery slope, that eventually leads to exactly where you’re saying it won’t…the late/end game.
Also, you could raise skills up in tandem, if you were that concerned about which you would want to play. Even as a complete newbie, I wasn’t utilizing my full hotkey bar of skills, nor were having 2 or 3 skills spec’d out necessary. This is really sounding less about wanting to experiment, and more just a general bitch-session about not liking to have to re-level skills. Which I can totally understand, because I’m not a huge fan of having to re-level 2 or 3 skill points when I decide to go a different route in my build, but I just accept it as part of the game…and a consequence of the decisions I make in it.
A bigger complaint would be why there’s not a ‘commit’ or ‘undo’ button on the skill tree, so you aren’t locked into your skill allocations simply by clicking on nodes. But that’s for another day.
I mean I clearly said elsewhere just make it so you don’t lose points on respec until 10. I think 10 is a pretty good spot personally, and that’s already the minimum level eventually.
You already get 10 levels when respeccing endgame so it would change literally nothing there.
Doesn’t apply to newly unlocked skills, and why does this need to be necessary?
Ok and it has severely annoyed me multiple times. Sure you just accept it but keep in mind it’s MUCH worse for new players too than it is for you or me, and it’s already annoyed me to the point I almost stopped playing LE entirely this patch (although I came back when I thought of a different build I wanted to try).
This reminds me of the “I like fish, I just don’t like the taste of fish” argument. No, you just don’t like fish. Same here. If having to play the game, and relevel skills, is enough to make you quit, then you really didn’t enjoy the game that much in the first place. There are plenty of things that annoy me, and/or I don’t like about the game. But, the whole of the game far outweigh those inconveniences, so I keep playing.
I apologize, I don’t recall seeing where you said this. But, I think I also conceded this as something that might be worthy of discussion, simply for the reason you stated (we get it later anyhow).
Yes, you are completely right about this. However for this to be happening less with newer players or just plain casuals that install the game, this has to be minimized.
If it comes to my personal feelings I couldn’t care less. With a few characters at lvl 100, I didn’t even notice the lack of points.
There is an old meme “think about the children”, I’d use it here. And making the game more accessible in early levels isn’t a bad thing. It can still be punishing later on.
That’s probably a fair enough assessment. I’ve been through enough crap with games (old day games got their rocks off punishing players), that something like this hardly bothers me at all.
Let’s go back to loosing a level and all inventory and equiped gear to have a good time . Back in the day that was a fun thing to happen to me but at a certain point in my life I grew up and thought of it as useless clutter. At this point I wasn’t annoyed by WoW anymore and the removal of death penalties.
I see three sides in this conversation:
Losing skill levels doesn’t matter at all
Losing skill levels is unnessesary
Loosing skill levels is a bad experience for new players
Sooo if loosing skill points is a non issue then ehy implement it at all? TBH I don’t give a rats ass if this system is in place or not but it is as usefull as a wart on the buttocks. If people actively dislike the system in place and others don’t even care about it and even don’t use all skillpoints and… (insert more experienced player schprech here), then why should this system be even there? Just to make less fortunuate/experienced/elite H&S players people hate it?
Sure if that is the intention behind so be it but to me it looks like this whole debate is as useless as loosing skill points for respeccing. Half of the people don’t care about it and the other half hates it and still the system is in place. This is beyond stupid for me.
s\loosing skill points\auto looting shards
s\loosing skill points\auto shards to crafting storage
s\loosing skill points\open trade system
As I said, lots of things will be in the game people don’t like and/or find annoying. That doesn’t mean we need new threads on them every week, nor make changes because “1/2 the people want it, and it’s pointless anyway”. Caving to the squeaky wheel every time probably isn’t the best decision. Some things will just be part of the game, like it or not. If they change, then they change. If they don’t then they don’t. I’m with you on one thing, though, I don’t care if they change it or not.
I lost/regained lvl 60 10 times in one night playing Everquest, due to their exp loss on death mechanic. Gotta hate trains in Lower Guk. So having to regain 3 or 4 levels of a skill isn’t the coffin-nail for a game, for me.
I’d be willing to wager that these “isn’t a big deal things” are being left in the game, mostly because the EHG team love sitting around and amusing themselves with these threads, while on lunch break.
I remember complaining about this (on reddit) a long time ago.
This is the answer I received:
You’ve basically hit the why there already. We want to avoid the quick switching for builds wholesale on the fly.
Personally, I’ve never had the issue of feeling annoyed at having to relevel a skill. If I were working on a game just for me, I would probably have it be a little tougher actually. However, it’s super not just for me and we used to get this type of feedback a lot so we added a few things to make experimenting with skills way easier. Scaling minimum skill level to make starting a skill from scratch easier and dramatically boosted xp gain for under leveled skills make experimenting really not that much of a time sink at all. Unlocking a new specialization slot puts a skill at the same position as just respecing one from scratch and within a couple levels, it’s at the exact same level as your other skills.
Secret tip, if you’re at a very high level 95+ and you get an exp reward in the monolith, you can actually respec all your skills almost all the way to 20 from scratch if you respec them right before picking up the xp books.
Which does not address the early game issue at all.
De-levelling fixes an issue in lategame i.e., people fully respeccing for boss battles.
I am yet to see a good defence for it in early game, other than “it does not matter, it gets better later”.
Not every decision requires (what you consider) a good defense. We could make the exact same argument for why Mastery selection should be changeable – because newbies aren’t familiar with all the systems, and might want to experiment with how a Mastery plays before selecting one permanently. (Hell, this one is even more deserving, since it can NEVER change once selected). So should we also let Mastery be changeable until…let’s say…you enter your first Monolith or Dungeon? Every point being made about skill loss could just as easily fit there. But, it is how it is, good defense, or not.
Yes Yes, you are not legally required to have a good defence for every single decision you make. The devs are grown adults, they can decide what they want for the game and do not have to justify to anyone. We are here to discuss, and the presence of a good argument in favor or in opposition to this mechanic is a relevant point to the discussion.
If you want to argue on these technicalities however, the argument you make for making masteries changable is rather flimsy.
What is your point? That just because two things present surface level similarity, and have people arguing for them using similar arguments, anyone that argues for one must also support the other, lest they be called a hypocrite?
Those two things are not even that similar. Selecting a mastery is a story event, which is never reversible. Respecializing skills is not a story event, and is always reversible.
. Back in the day that was a fun thing to happen to me but at a certain point in my life I grew up and thought of it as useless clutter. At this point I wasn’t annoyed by WoW anymore and the removal of death penalties.