Let's Talk about Class Diversity

With the impending mega-nerf to Ward, I would like to open a discussion about the diversity in classes, specifically focusing on defensive capabilities and their associated stats.

Overall Diversity of Classes

There seems to be some overlap between different class concepts. For instance, both Shamans and Mages use the same elements. Consequently, their visual aesthetics are quite similar, making them feel somewhat indistinguishable. In Path of Exile 2, an entire class was deleted due to this problem.

Letā€™s take a closer look at Shamans. They serve as an odd-ball damage dealer within their class because the other two subclasses primarily deal with physical, poison, and bleed damage (with the exception of limited ice play for Druids).

To address this, I suggested to Moxie that Shaman spellsā€™ damage types be shifted to a default of spell-physical and poison options. Additionally, the ice spells currently associated with Druids could be moved to either poison or physical. This adjustment would create better synergy among the Primalist classes.

This introduction outlines my thoughts on class design in Last Epoch. I believe that implementing the above changes would significantly enhance the class experience. Now, letā€™s delve into the topic of defensive stats.

Defensives:

I would like to first point out that there are many hidden defensive mechanics that are often specific to a class or even a mastery. For example, Mages have a mechanic called ā€œdamage dealt to mana before health,ā€ which can be more simply referred to as a ā€œmana shield.ā€ Additionally, there are various other damage reduction types (such as dodge for Rogues and block for Sentinels). The problem is that these defensives lack the benefits of Ward, which provides stun avoidance.

I suggest that we delve more deeply into this topic, conducting a light design pass on these defensive stats. This could encourage alternative class builds. For instance, if the universal build is health + Ward, then Rogues might focus on health + dodge, Sentinels could prioritize block + armor or health, and Mages might emphasize mana and mana regeneration.

Stun Mechanics in LE Are Indescribably Bad.

The way stuns are currently designed is simply horrible. While I am a strong supporter of stun mechanics, I believe they should not be tied to auto attacks. One of the most enjoyable aspects of combat in LE is the ā€œherdingā€ gameplay, where you gather lots of mobs and take them down in droves. LEā€™s open level design contributes to this enjoyable experience, especially when compared to the restrictive hallways of D4. However, the stun mechanics become problematic with larger mob counts, almost guaranteeing multiple stuns in a rowā€”especially when lag is involved.

If your argument is that players should simply stack resistance to invalidate stuns, I would argue that this is a greater reason why stun mechanics should be reevaluated. Stun mechanics should be proactive, not reactionary. In other words, if you get stunned, you should have an ability (such as immunity or traversal) to escape that stun, akin to a trinket or crowd control removal.

This brings us to the next topic: resists.

Iā€™m not sure whatā€™s going on with these, but they feel almost pointless, similar to how resists in D4 Season 1 did. Itā€™s almost an identical situation. First of all, I would argue for significantly more power. Additionally, Iā€™d like to condense elemental resists and open up room for other damage types. For instance, we could change ā€œfire/lightning/coldā€ to simply ā€œelemental resistsā€ as a singular stat. Then, we could use the two resist type slots to expand the options for damage (perhaps adding light and chaos or celestial damage?).

Adding a secondary effect for resists could be interesting. For example, ā€œif you go above 100% resists, you gain x amount of your total ward retention each time that damage type deals damage to you.ā€ Alternatively, we could create more items that interact with the surplus of resists. The ā€œpaddingā€ from extra resists just isnā€™t valuable enough.

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks for your time.

Where? When? Source? What have I missed?

Uh yes for sure. All Sentinel classes have overlaps, all Primalist classes have overlaps and so on and so forth.

Itā€™s a Totem class. itā€™s a niche not many people like at all anf that is the only odd thing about them. Sadly Shamans donā€™t get any extra totems that are fun. From my point of view Thorn totem should be moved to Shaman and we should get another summon instead for primalist. This would keep the Totem class fantasy on the shaman.

uhm dah? There are obvious interactions in the mastery classes skilltrees like FG and Pala get good block stuff, VK gets good leech. Mages fiddle arround with Ward mostly and so on and so forth. itā€™s pretty obvious what defences are scaleable best with ech mastery and those are good as they are.

If the stuns are to strong you do something wrong. That is a you problem with many ways to avoid beeing stuned at all.

Feelings are not important at this matter. You take more dmg if you donā€™t stack resists and thatā€™s it. This isnā€™t about feelings but numbers and you get a lot more dmg if your resists suck. nothing to see here.

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Shaman has very few fire skills, it mainly uses Physical, Cold and Lightning.

I also disagree completely about them being indistinguishable.
Their theme and visuals are world parts. Just because the damage type is the same doesnā€™t make them similar.

I donā€™t think this is a good idea, because when resistances will be adjusted or changed the damage scaling stats from a player perspective would need adjusting as well otherwise it would be way to convoluted. This would then hurt your point above, about classes being to similar.

While I always like extra fancy stats that are not your typical core stats.
I donvt think this is a good idea as a baseline functionality. Resistances are core stats and should be simple.

Stuff like you suggest needs to be coming from uniques, masteries, skills or threshold passives.

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If I was unclear, I wanted to make the class-specific defensives much stronger. For example, giving mana shield stun avoidance (making it something closer or more equal to ward at the higher cost of mana)

Many people are having issues with these mechanics, are they also all ā€œbadā€? If your go to argument is ā€œget goodā€ you should probably not debate such topics.

You are incorrect. Entire outcry was done for season 1 D4 over this topic. LEā€™s resists are broken in many ways (example there is a negative resists bug with idols). They need to be corrected and play amore significant role (ie their DR should be stronger).

I would also add that ā€œfeelingā€ is one of the three key points of ā€œgood designā€, not having ā€œfeelingsā€ in a concept in game is ā€œdeficient or bad designā€.

I thought this way until i picked up mage. The synergy between masteries is so significantly higher than primalist and shaman, its unbelievable. Shaman is definitely ā€œout of its elementā€ while encroaching on the mages class identity. This is why I was very careful with this on the classes I designed for le, and I only used specific elements on one of the two of them because of the deficiency of other options.

I think this is rather a shaman problem then a general Elemental type problem.

Shaman is old, has the fewest skills (among Lich and Paladin) and is due to a overhaul.

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I donā€™t disagree. I find the ā€œcampā€ playstyle to be really bad and very much against the intuitive gameplay for games like this (arpg). Most people want and play highly mobile builds that are used for ā€œspeed farmingā€, and for the seeable future that will be the case. So having to ā€œplaceā€ totems is not a good idea.

Iā€™d rather make the skills spirits or spirit related and shift the elements to blend better with the other masteries/primary. Alternatively making totems a relic slot that is required to activate specific abiltiies (example ā€œair totemā€ is required for ā€œtornadoā€).

I guess there are other ways this could be done but this would require an entire design pass and i think the team just wants to lightly touch it up, which is why i think the damage type should just be swapped to physical/poison.

There is a unique for this if you are overwhelmed with all the other options to avoid stuns and want to have a mana shield that avoids stuns.

Not bad at all. Some people have problems with Lagon others with Majasa (or whatever the snake is called) some people are unable to kil Julra. I donā€™t think that people are bad. I think that people should L2P and rtfm. Everything is rather well explained ingame and people answered questions (and mindless rants) on said topics again and again. There are only some ā€œbadā€ people who donā€™t want to listen or see reason and thatā€™s their fault and not the games fault.

Yes stuns and controll imairing effects are trash mechanics from the 80s but I rather have a stun mechanic then a backwards control mechanic or whatever. Imgaine there are enemies that blind you and your screen goes blackā€¦ fun times in Wildstar ^^.

Why? this is a skill based game. You need skill, experience, knowledge and time to play this genre. Depending on how much you have of each games get easier or harder but you can always get good if you want to and invest some time in it. If player A who complains about whatever is a stupid moron who is advise resistent then itā€™s not the games fault but moronic player Aā€™s fault.

Nah

And I had 0 issues with it and thought it was fun. Now I mindlessly walz through the game and faceroll everything. Made the game so much betterā€¦ not.

Yes webs on the floor were bad, unavoidable stuns were bad and so on and so forth. But beeing able to dodge most crap with the active dodge mechanic added depth to the game that was removed.

What ways? I cap my resis or donā€™t depending on the build and never had any bugs. i saw a screenshot of one person who had hundrets of negative resis but that seemed to be an isolated case. I havenā€™t seen anyone else with problems neither have I seen an increasing ammount of bug topics about resis. I will double check though. Then again enlighten me pretty please what bugs are you reffering to?

What is so bad about resis? They offer another % DR vs their elements. They are nice as they are. Not to much affixes needed to cap them, not to much damage taken if they are not capped.

And I feel the game is well designed in most ways so what? Should I start to say your feelings are wrong? You brought your feelings in on a numerical matter and feelings and numbers are exclusiv of each other. Itā€™s like for example I weight 500kg and I feel petite, then my feelings are completely irrational because numbers donā€™t lie. Even I as a math donky admit that.

If you want to see the world only like it fits to you then sorry but Iā€™m out ^^.

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You donā€™t have to play ā€œcampā€ playstyle shaman though.
I have played many melee or Caster shaman builds not utilizing totems at all.

Effectively making shaman a mage, and now you see the issue.

lol, all this just to complain about stuns some more

I Strongly disagree. No, I extremely and unconditionally believe its horrible. Many people have complained about it. I just joined a random discord on the server share and got an entire channel saying ā€œI hate itā€.

I should not be required to use a unique to stop a bad mechanic.

You lost me at the resistance types. We already have elemental resist as a Stat and why do you want to add 2 extra damage types for no reason? That will change nothing in how many affixes we have to build will just make the game seem more complex for the sake of complexity without any actual mechanical change with this.

No, even a Caster or melee shaman has vastly different theme and visuals.

The lightnings look waaaay different and the cold stuff as well

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I swear to god, if youā€™re the reason that at one point Shaman / Primalist / Druid gets ruined and kill my beloved Diablo-2-esque druid stormbringer (which is thematically and visually still major difference to a typical mage - iā€™m sorry, thatā€™s arguing that beastmaster and necromancer and maybe throw witchdoc into this as well, are the exact same just because they share a similiar idea), not only is there a high chance iā€™ll stop playing LE because of that kills my most favorite class-fantasy about ā€œdruidsā€ (nature-catastrophic-elementar-masters ā†’ liked that always over transformations and/or [in regard of shaman] totems) and so one of my favorite classes in LEā€¦ i also would every night of my life dedicated to chant to an unknown god, so that youā€™re for the rest of your life stepping on lego-stones. Like Spell-Physical and Poison optionsā€¦ no JUST no. If they introduce another mastery (because i recently read something about maybe 5 masteres total for each baseclass might be a targetā€¦ can someone confirm this) okayā€¦ but donā€™t screw with my shaman with that nonseneā€¦

100% agreeā€¦ (as you might guess because while there is a sense of humor in my post above, i really take that suggestion a bit personalā€¦ couldā€™ve picked any other class, and i most likely wouldnā€™t have caredā€¦)

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The option for more masteries is there, but Mike has said on stream that adding a new class is easier balance-wise than masteries, so itā€™s a technical possibility, but not a realistic one.

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Okay thanks, i donā€™t mind either way - another baseclass plus new masteries or new masteries for existing, i geniunly donā€™t care - just happy to get more stuff to play with in the long run.
They only thing which i really hope (again maybe some can another re-confirmation) that the existing classes get their ā€˜missingā€™ skills, because itā€™s a bit frustrating like in case of Shaman, that Druid and Beastermasters get total 5 unique skills for their Mastery, but Shaman ā€˜justā€™ 4.

Donā€™t forget the part where as a Shaman, I can t-bag my Bear/Wolf/walking tree for standing in the fire and dying ā€¦ again.

This is gameplay that is just unavailable to me on a Mage, how would I ever enjoy a Spellblade?

If you meant the opposite of what you posted, then yes, thatā€™s what Mike has said on more than one occasion. Just search ā€œmastery from:EHG_Mikeā€ on the LE discord and youā€™ll find heā€™s covered this many, many times.

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Iā€™m sorry that i come off so ā€˜offendedā€™ but it really gripes me the wrong way about the suggestion that Mage and Primalist are ā€˜sameyā€™ just because both of them use elemental-spells/magic, while ignoring that despite that ā€˜overlappingā€™ similiarities that they still have their own vibes/theme/concepts. Not to mention that it generally kinda miss the core-idea of a druid as a class(fantasy) because Druids basically are jack-of-all-trades, but not to heavily focused on one particular thingā€¦ in most Games with druids you can summon pets - which shares similiarities to petclasses like necromancer, while have the transformations which gives you the different roles which other classes have - like tank (bear often), agile damage dealer (like a tiger or in this case arguable the swarmblade) or something magical / healing related. And than also gets some magic stuff similiar akin to mages, but everything in ther own, unique nature-related twist/wayā€¦ and in case of LE also Shaman with totem-fantasy is mixed in.