But… you always get either the same item back (1 LP base) or get a legendary item (1 LP + work put into, even if the outcome is shit) or potentially a 2 LP item absolutely best-case… dunno if pure 2 LP can be given out or only 2 Legendary.
One way or the other it’s always an upside even with a 1 LP.
So my point stands. I understand why it might’ve been thought about but it only relates to 2 LP items and not 1 LP items as 2 LP items are by design more valuable then the outcomes from Nemesis but 1 LP items not.
It can. In the stream Mike had a 2LP from Nemesis.
It is, but it can be confusing for newer players. Imagine you put a 1LP item there and hit empower. When you next encounter the Nemesis, it rolled 1LP. Naturally, many players would be confused and asking why it didn’t work since they now have the same item.
This is their reasoning for it. I don’t fully agree, but I do understand.
Why would that be a problem?
Does every item of the 4 have to be upgraded every time? A ‘chance for an upgrade’ is also a viable outcome any reasonable player should expect from any upgrade mechanic in general nowadays. It’s just so wide-spread after all.
And also, the item is inside there for 2 empowers anyway, so with the second empower it suddenly is better then ever before!
The current status for uniques is that a 0 LP item has more value then a 1 LP item because of that. To not ‘confuse’ people which seemingly need hand-holding to find the toilet and hence not shit their pants regularly we create a far bigger progression problem. That’s… not how it’s done commonly for a reason
And many many things confuse a new player, it’s just another one on the list, learning curve, even a fairly miniscule aspect of it since nonetheless they’ll get more out then before in the end.
One way or the other I can’t wrap my head around the decision, because since that one was made the counter-argument has to be thought about as well… and when that happens it simply makes no sense as to why it would be done this way anymore as the downsides are just so much much more severe for overall gameplay feeling, when put into perspective.
If “confusion” is such a problem. They can literally can just swap text.
Replace text “Lacks legendary potential” with “Legendary potential will be removed”.
Then as soon as it is put into the egg, it removes the LP from the item. Is that more confusing than the current system? I don’t think so.
There would still be the frustration of putting in a 1LP item and then having the egg turn it into a 1LP item. But if you “disable putting LP back onto the item” in the backend programming this negative can easily be prevented. And you don’t even need to put any helper text to do this, just do it in the backend.
LOL, I don’t know why “new player confusion” is a suddenly a problem… in the game with the glyph of insight. Maybe it’s just me, but I’m finding this hilarious.
I dunno if it’s a problem, I think not. I didn’t make the case for it being the point to even do it, I just made the counter-argument to that point
Yes?
Why not?
There’s after all several use-cases for that.
Got no exalted which fits? First use-case.
Want to hit a specific rare affix which you won’t get realistically in due time? Second use-case.
Got a fantastic exalted item but no high LP unique yet? Would be a waste to use on a low LP one! Third use-case.
So yes, avoiding Julra given we get a system to specifically avoid her makes sense in that case.
The point is that those are intermediate outcomes, not ‘big ticket items’. That’s the function of the mechanic for uniques.
For rares and exalted items it’s another topic, yes, the mechanic can produce the best possible exalted items in the game after all.
@Sol77 no one wants that, that’s the point… 1LP common items are not worth for slamming on Julra, but they could turn to something decent enough if we were able to put them on the egg…
The point of Nemesis is though that there’s superior possible outcomes able to happen.
The first is that it can roll a T7 rare affix on it, rarely… but possible. Which is a superior outcome compared to using a 1LP item in conjunction with a base having a rare T7 affix. You won’t need to use that one up hence and be able to keep it for more important crafts.
They’re rare after all and hence not worthwhile to waste and stifle your future progression.
The second is that a unique can turn into a 2 LP unique through the mechanic. Which is also by design superior then a 1 LP item.
So that leaves the 1 LP uniques in a weird state simply.
Since bases for nearly every unique are rather ‘easy’ to get but the limiting factor generally is the LP then you can just use 0 LP uniques on the Nemesis until your outcome is a 2 LP unique. Especially so for high value uniques which commonly would be hard to acquire with 2 LP in the first place.
That means 1 LP items since Nemesis got introduced are generally not valuable enough to put rare T7 affixes on them, simply allowing the progression of that stage to be more gradual and front-loaded to before… but leaving 1 LP items less desirable then 0 LP uniques which is a bad state.
But this ain’t true for rare uniques. Most of your use-cases only happen in magical christmas land anyway
I think I understand the psychological gambling effect here where you enjoy spinning the wheel every other echo to try and get something cool out of your 0 LP Kestrels and Keeper’s Gloves, which you can’t if they come with 1 LP, but really, what can you win and how realistic is that?
Correct. You don’t want to put those in the egg. However, there are probably 100 non-rare uniques for each rare unique and we are mostly talking about these.
You play legacy and don’t even pick those up. Well then you probably have little use for Nemesis in the first place.
2 LP outcomes aren’t extremely rare. They’re not common but they happen.
Which makes it especially viable for rare uniques I would argue, since you want them to have 2 LP optimally and there’s no other reliable way to get them, you simply need to run a lot. So re-using the doubles we drop hence have a viable usage suddenly.
A 2 LP item and fairly realistic.
Tier 6 also, around 1 in 5 or so.
Tier 7 is roughly… 1 in 25 or so?
The right one? Nah… but that’s also the same for actually getting the right mod onto a LP 1 item, 25% only + the need for a base.
No, still not.
Especially for rare uniques it’s massive!
Getting your 0 LP one is the place where you’re commonly at, maybe a 1 LP one while missing a decent exalted item for it… at best you’ll go ahead and craft it and maybe get a good outcome already before you actually need a good base with a good hit, and that always takes time as we know, far far more then getting doubles of even the most rare uniques.
So specifically there it’s a huge upside since your doubles are worthless and on the market they actually become worthless surprisingly quickly too.
If someone plays Legacy and doesn’t have a perfectly rolled 2 LP item on their character yet then Nemesis always has a use.
If you got several 1 LP ones you don’t need them either.
If you don’t have bases but multiple 1 LP left you don’t need them either.
The progression for uniques goes to getting a 0 LP one.
Then you get a 1 LP one and try to put a nice affix on it.
If it doesn’t happen you re-try.
If it happens… nice! What use do the other 1 LP rings now have? None.
If you got 5 1 LP rings stored already and lack the bases… what do 1-2 of those rings have value-wise? Also none.
So there’s - once again, as mentioned - several use-cases were you’ll gladly ‘give up’ your 1 LP to get a better possible outcome as no alternatives are at the moment available and the small chance to acquire a 2 LP is hence worth it.
Yeah, once more… for Julra you need a base.
The issue never was acquisition of the uniques outside of high LP (1 is not high, even for the most rare ones) but of the bases.
Since you can hence do jack with the uniques anyway for the lack of bases you can use Nemesis.
So even if Julra provides 100% chance it doesn’t matter unless you have a base, which you don’t, which makes your 1 LP worthless to have in several doubles, which makes it Nemesis fodder by that point.
Uh, did not know about the base actually. Only was once at Julra and it looks I was plain lucky.
Good to know. and that makes Nemesis even more valuable than I thought it is.
No wonder EHG hesitates to allow that.
Yeah, but given that we have the option to use ‘less valuable’ uniques for it it actually makes less sense.
The quantity of 0 LP uniques is after all several magnitudes higher then 1 LP.
The problem only arrives when we have no need for 1 LP for whatever reason (any of the mentioned one and unmentioned ones which someone might have) and now… suddenly 1 LP is less valuable for us in the game then 0 LP.
That’s a odd situation, shouldn’t happen.
Hence why people say ‘let us use 1 LP in Nemesis’ since the quantity of usage wouldn’t substantially increase but it removes those ‘feel bad’ moments where we have a unique of the type but since it’s ‘too good’ we can’t use it as material.
I can 100% understand why a 2+ LP can’t be used, the best possible outcome is after all a 2 LP item… but anything beyond having a rolled 1 LP legendary with a decent affix opens pandora’s box basically for it suddenly turning upside-down in being useful, hence the option to allow us to upgrade it - with luck - to the same stage as a 0 LP can potentially reach is all that’s asked for.
