I will agree to drop the statement but I and many others have heard it so I will not agree with wasn’t said, just that you are unwilling to believe me which to be fair, if I’m not willing to spend hours looking for it, why would you?
Are you really saying that most people are quitting after 1 week because they reach 1K corruption… Really? More than me, be honest with yourself.
Sure but I don’t know how to do it. I follow a build guide and I see what things I need to have where, I’m not changing that.
Previous answer fills this one too.
No it isn’t, only S tier builds do it and even then not all but most do.
No, I just never got an S tier build to that point in gear and blessings, that’s all.
What you describe is a inherent skill-check of the whole genre itself.
That’s a basic skill to play a loot-based ARPG, to decipher the value of the specific items you personally have in comparison.
A build guide can only show you to direction, it cannot tell you which item you should personally wear comparatively with the exact values where it turns over to something else. That’s your task.
I think you failed to look at the sheer wall of complaints about ‘this game is too hard’ for FromSoft games
They just get ignored for a reason, because the game is designed to have that difficulty and they don’t want to compromise the game-feel for it.
Which is factually wrong as not only is the area level increased by ‘1’ but you also loose a substantial amount of resistances. Factually wrong.
PoE has a extreme learning curve, that’s the difficulty.
The game itself isn’t that hard mechanically. It’s solely about building the extremely complex knowledgebase.
For example of we directly compare it the Uber-Lillith from D4 is roughly equivalent with a non-uber top-tier boss like the Searing Exarch… which is the hardest mechanical boss in the core progression by the way, outside of ‘Simon Says’ Eldritch… hence the Maven.
I play… a friggin dagger glass cannon with one of the worst defensive classes in the game and had no glancing blows either.
Get some health on your gear and you’re golden, and get res. That’s all you need.
Very few builds only work with empowered boss-drops. And if you need one of those for it to function then it’s not a ‘starter build’. You chose badly and should’ve expected that to be the case.
That’s why leveling builds exist.
Yes, if you don’t have a ramping up difficulty you aren’t getting challenged after acquanting yourself with the controls and hence getting gradually more skilled.
If you’re learning impaired in some form then that’s something else… but otherwise the situation is impossible not to happen.
It’s a prime way to bore out your audience if you don’t scale up gradually.
Which is more then telling because I define that build as ‘delete and start over’ quality. And I play any trash as long as I enjoy the mechanics behind them. Just get annoyed if something is utterly sub-par which I do enjoy and is directly designed with clear-cut mechanics provided by the game.
For something like this there is ‘burden of proof’.
I understand that you don’t want to invest that amount of time, absolutely.
But you also gotta understand why it’s then nothing more then ‘trust me bro’ and people can or won’t take it at face value.
When Uber-Elder was the peak boss in PoE 1 still people went along to kill it by standing around AFK. People did so at below level 40.
These sorts of challenges haven’t changed.
Show me a single person killing Uberroth at level… let’s say 60, to be lenient.
Yeah, because they repeat content. It’s end-game already, farm for 1-2 hours. As I stated in the other thread… there was gear where the white bases from a vendor and crafting on them would’ve provided you with a nigh guaranteed upgrade in functionality.
LE and understanding gear:
Melee? Weapon with flat damage.
Non-melee? Skill through passive tree and whatever is lacking on the weapon, flat or percentile.
Defenses? Crit reduction or avoidance to 100, doesn’t matter how… you start with reduction and move to avoidance with some builds as reduction has at least a function.
Cap res.
Get as much health as possible.
Everything else? Secondary. That’s your core, for every class. Then it’s finetuning.
What I stated brings every build to empowered without issues and progression problems.
Gameplay-stage specific dropoff and time-specific dropoff are two different topics.
They are to be seen separate for a reason.
You’re mixing up your statistical graphs with values that correlate but not causate. It’s very important - and quite hard - to know which the difference is.
That’s… not dropping it…
Just saying.
Many do.
Why?
Because when you’ve got the ‘recipe’ down on how to progress it’s really easy in LE.
When I played VK I actually grinded till 700c and then got bored as I knew I had ~850 in my build without investment but nothing dropped and I stopped being interested in mindlessly grinding without returns.
Well, I actually did last time you mentioned it. I put the podcasts on whilst at work and re-listened to them all. I can confirm it wasn’t mentioned.
Some people get 40/40 challenges in a week in PoE and that is way harder than reaching 1000c.
So here you’re saying you’re below the skill level of the average player. You shouldn’t need a guide to tell you to cap resistances.
You wouldn’t know, you’ve never taken a build this far, but many players consider 700c the minimum for a build with the aim for the average build to run 1000c.
You need to play an S tier build in the first place. The issue is you’re too stubborn and not willing to improve. The game is already too easy, but you can’t be bothered learning the basics and want things to be even easier.
If EHG weren’t already doing a stellar job of killing their own game, following you balance suggestions would be the next best thing.
It depends how you look at it. There are a lot of people asking for harmodes or to bring back the masochist mode. I know first time gamers who asked me if this is a joke and I know others who said the game is far to hard.
I had my WTF moments untill I get defences thought out for sure because I’m a slow poke. Right now a decently skilled person can play the story part of the game almost naked but I’m all for team average Joe and for those players the difficulty is okay but Lagon and Majasa need some tuning.
Yes and no. With your approach you might have 0 issues in the campaign and empowered will still be a roadblock. We need some way to make it OBVIOUS that empowered is not childsplay anymore but this is easiely achiveable by tuning normal monos so you need to grind better gear to fix resistences and such and to get more dmg or levels.
But to get the difficulty curve right we need a set in stone goal that should be reachable for everyone and only the best of the best players with the S tier builds and hours upon hours of farming BiS gear should be able to overachive. There is sadly no way to reach this if there isn’t a blancing goal and if the difficulty isn’t increasing over time the further you progress.
Yeah I get what you are saying but at some point you either have a hard difficulty increase like right now or you start to increase the difficulty from start to finish. Right now you can pretty much smash your head on the keyboard and you win in the campaign. There should be skills that need to keep you on your toes and not all enemies should be pushovers so you get a feeling for what will ruin your day in the future if you think mindless toddler mode is all you get from the game.
I don’t talk about enemies in the campaign need to do 1337% more dmg and have 2879% more hp across the bord. I talk about increases where a stupid plant in act one still hurts if you are to lazy to dodge the telegraphed attack. Then again I talk about bringing lagon and majasa more in line. There are some enemies that need to be toned down and others that need to be buffed even in the campaign but without making the game a soulslike or another PoE but getting away from baby difficulty would help to paint a clearer picture without making the game to hard.
With this in mind and stuff more in line you can crank up the numbers with corruption or you can buff or nerf over or underperforming builds. Without any changes every balance attempt will lead to some enemies that are in line and other who instagib you later on in emp monos.
No baseline blance = inbalance throughout the game as prooven right now by Last Epoch.
Literally logged back in just to echo this sentiment. Paid expansions that include new classes is pretty standard fare for ARPGs, classic-style ones anyway, but those games are usually finished before expansions are added. The campaign isn’t done and half the masteries are still missing skills, but they want to charge for more likely unfinished classes? I’m so glad TQ2 is as amazing as I hoped it would be, because having devs that care about more than money and actually want to finish their game feels great after playing LE for 500 hours
Considering the aggressive updates to the game so far, it’s very hard for me to criticize this announcement.
You’re working so hard!
And even then, It’s not uncommon for things not to go as planned.
Of course, there are still some issues to be ironed out.
But you’re doing a great job and I’m thoroughly enjoying the game, this is most important.
I’m looking forward to the expansion content and new classes!
The only thing I find disappointing about this announcement is the lack of information of the roadmap.
Yes and you follow that direction. There is a difference between, this is as close as I’ve managed to get so far and I’m looking for better gear to replace and being able to theorize how to get around what I don’t currently have with a huge number of permutations of things I MAY be able to get together with lots of adjustments on the passive tree to make it happen.
A build guide will tell the player what he is aiming for and what order to get his skills in. Gear will be as close as he can get to what he’s aiming for at any given point in the game. Telling people to be able to find ways around by changing the passive tree and the gear entirely to make things work is basically the same as saying do your own build. If people were good enough to make their own build they wouldn’t need a guide anyway.
The purpose of a guide is to tell people, do exactly like this and it works and that is exactly what people have done for ARPGs all this time.
There is a difference here. Games are made for specific audiences and when the game isn’t working for the audience it’s made for then the complaint is valid but if say, a casual player complains a souls like is too hard then there is hardly a point in listening to that. To that end, LE was made for the average player and marketed as such but the reality is that it’s easier to experience success and have more fun with PoE which is marketed for hardcore players (even if at one time it was marketed for average players too) than it is with LE. A lot easier in fact.
Yes, the area level increases by 1 but the mobs you fight are now randomized and certain mobs are a lot easier to deal with than others so I actually find the first 2 or 3 map tiers easier than act 10. As for the resistance penalties it’s probably the one point where you are closer to being right. Ideally by this point you are already res capped even for when the penalty kicks in but that isn’t always the case. However you just buy the gear before you start mapping anyway and it is in fact more likely that you will have resistances capped by the time you are doing the first t1 map than act 10 because a lot of people don’t bother too much during the campaign, only when going to maps do the bother to cap it.
The game isn’t hard mechanically if your build stands up to it. If you can face tank most things thrown at you then mechanically it is easy but if you have to actually manually dodge attacks then it becomes mechanically more complicated.
Of course PoE knowledge is indeed a problem of complexity we don’t even need to go into but to say it’s mechanically easy is not entirely accurate either.
I do, as much as gear drops allow me anyway. You keep saying things as if I could wish for perfect pieces to just drop but realistically almost nothing good ever drops. It is why people really need to be in empowered because only after that you get a noticeable increase in drops that you can do something with.
Not empowered bosses drops. Empowered has a lot more drops, has a lot more exalted drops too (which make a world difference not only for the better affix but also for crafting potential) and again, grand blessings. Plenty of builds get a couple resistance almost entirely capped from the grand blessing + a tiny bit in the tree.
Ok so there seems to be something you don’t understand here and a lot of people don’t understand this so let me say it in a few words.
Everyone has a limit of how good they can get at anything.
The idea that the more you practice something the better you become is pure BS as demonstrated by people who try to be better at many things and just cannot past a certain point but with other things they can get extremely good.
Anyone who has played ARPG for a few hundred hours has hit the limit of how good they are going to mechanically get unless they really no life it and even then they are likely only going to get a little better because they are already at the point where they need to invest a ridiculous amount of time repeating things over and over again to even have any gains.
So if a game is meant to be for the average player you can’t say that the way to improve is get good because if they could be any better, they’d likely already be. In this situation you have to allow the player to overcome the problem not with skill but with gear.
Again, we’re talking about a game that is balanced around average players.
Good for you, I’ve seen the build work and I’ve played it myself enough to tell me it was far better than anything I’ve played. I don’t care if you have the knowledge on how to make it better, I don’t hence why I and the overwhelming majority of people follow build guides.
Yes and like I said, it’s up to you whether or not you want to believe it. If you don’t want to, drop the matter, it’s that simple, I know it is so because I heard them say it and when I speak I speak with the knowledge I have. You want to believe it isn’t true, that’s up to you.
I’m not saying Uberroth isn’t hard. I’m saying that at this moment in time it’s harder to kill uber uber bosses in PoE which is the pinnacle content than Uberroth.
Well sure, if I spend 2 weeks farming normal I will have better gear, that is fair but in normal monos I can do an entire timeline multiple times and find like 2 or 3 items to craft which often don’t even result in something better. It’s painful to farm prior to empowered. To me end game doesn’t even starts before empowered with how bad it is.
This not counting even after empowered it still feels bad. Not horrible, just bad. In my opinion up until the players has 1LP legendaries on the uniques he’d normally use and T22 items in every other slot and those T22 being the exact base they want with the exact affixes they want, they should probably be getting a couple upgrades every day till they reach that point. Then it’s looking for higher LP and double exalted items.
That is an EXTREMELY generalized statement. For starters, let’s talk about crit avoidance. Where do you get most of it? Right, a grand blessing, you are only meant to get 1 item with that affix otherwise you need 2 or 3 items to do that job and what does that means, you are losing resistances somewhere or life for it and you are making those items literally throw away items when it’s already hard to find decent items. Let’s say 2 or 3 resistances are mostly capped from grand blessings, well now you are not going to have those at all until you get those blessings, if you do then you are losing either on other resistances or again, life.
On top of this knowing exactly what to switch out in the tree to get better defenses at any point with the current gear that you have isn’t easy. When you pointed out, hey you could change this or that in the tree and you’d have more defenses. Sure, but you expect me to know that without it being pointed out? And at which point should I change that back to what is in the build guide? People won’t know this unless they have a very deep understanding of the game and only a few people ever do, hence why people follow build guides and why they must be extremely easy to follow.
Yes, time and cause to stop are different but remember, after one week LE dropped from tens of thousands possible over 100K into 4 digits possibly even low 4 digits. PoE doesn’t has nor ever had this kind of drop.
We both agree that the cause is the difficulty spikes. But your method requires people to get good which in an ideal world where everyone can infinitely get better would be a solution. But we don’t live in an ideal world and people don’t get infinitely good, they reach their limit and there isn’t more growth in that particular area. My solution circumvents that issue and allows the average player to get into empowered and as their gear and blessings come online, they can push corruption. Can they still do 1K+ corruption with the S tier builds? Probably not, they are not as mechanically skilled, but can they probably get to 300 or even 500? Probably so and more importantly, they will play for longer, they will have fun and guess what, if MTX improves too, they might feel encouraged to buy some and support the game.
What is many? 1K players? 2K players? We had 80K this season, 150K the previous and who gets to 1K corruption out of those, 1 or 2K people? You think that is many? Many in this context is in comparison to the people who played this season and in that context, that is a very small number of people and I’ll even go a little bit further. Those people who reach 1K corruption aren’t likely the ones who quit, they are likely the ones who stick around even after most left.
Or you missed the one where it was said, either way I heard it and a few streamers talked about it at the time. Anyway i will drop the topic here. If you want to believe that they said it, be my guest, if not it doesn’t really changes the fact that I already heard it from their mouth and understand at which people people quit.
Now am I right that they are quitting because empowered is to hard just because people hit empowered and quit? Not necessarily. But it is my case, it is the case for a couple people I know (I don’t have many friends who play LE) and it certainly makes far more sense than the theory that the very good players put out that people are getting bored with the game. Yeah, they got bored precisely at the point they can start scaling difficulty and quit… Ok.
And that is in a realm of how many players? How many people vs how many people player that season? You may say some or many like Kulze said but realistically they are a tiny portion of the player base who are extremely good and not the example because we’re talking about the average player here.
I don’t need a build guide to tell me that even though the build guides already have that in, go figure. But some resistances only get capped by grand blessings which means until you get them, you are going to have some that aren’t capped because what happens when you try to put all resistances on gear to get past the point of not having grand blessings? You lose HP. Want to also not be crit? Well, lose more HP because that also majorly comes from a blessing.
So no, you ignore what needs to be ignored and well, sometimes resistances will be even lower because go figure, you just aren’t getting good enough drops.
The point you made previous was not just changing equipment with better rolled ones which in most cases wasn’t possible and in one specific case was possible but at the time I did miss that one but also change the passive tree. Those things were not meant to be part of the passive so at which point do I switch back and am I supposed to guess what will be the better choice in the passive when it’s not part of the build guide?
People follow build guides because they are not good enough to do that.
I have never taken it this because guess what, the game has progression walls and I like the overwhelming majority of people quit shortly after hitting empowered.
Not willing or not possible? You think someone can get mechanically better just because they want? I am an average player and have been playing ARPGs since D1 although more seriously since PoE and I have improved a lot from prior to that. Does that mean I can get even better, no, I haven’t gotten any better in years and I will not get any better, I’ve hit the limit of how good I can get at ARPGs and that is average. I am terrible at sport games, that is my cap, being terrible but at games like WoT I was pretty good. People are going to be better at certain things than other but regardless they have a limit of how good they can get at anything.
Now, this is not to say I hit the absolute limit of how good I can get. If I play 12 hours a day non stop trying to get better every day I could potentially get a little better, but it’s too much effort and not fun for a tiny bit of improvement, it’s not worth it as I want to enjoy my games, not hate it because I’m grinding to get my skills a tiny bit better which likely won’t even make too much of a difference in the end.
The issue there is: You went very much off-course.
That’s not the task of the guide anymore. The only thing the guide could’ve told you further is the basic I’ve told you:
Res cap, health, crit reduction and what the weapon focuses on.
That’s it. If you’ve followed the focus on those Affixes then any build does deal well with at least 150c without issue, and in 150c you can absolutely farm for anything.
There is currently no build available which wouldn’t at least - with some effort - beat Aberroth reliably. With that I mean outside of the access issues the game has for that fight (unfitting for the position a bit, dunno how exactly to fix that though, didn’t put thought in it in-depth) there is no issue even for a ‘average joe’ player.
Boss-fights are pure pattern recognition skill, which is mandatory in every ARPG bossfight nowadays.
And that I do 100% agree with.
LE is not made for the D4 audience though. And it is not made for the PoE audience either.
We’ve got to adhere to the baseline of it needing ‘some’ skill (hence at least some form of dexterity rather then two left hands) and also ‘some’ effort.
Campaign is easier then D4 campaign until Lagon.
Pinnacle content is harder then PoE pinnacle content.
End-game beginning is a bit too easy, end-game starting empowered scales badly in the ‘too hard’ direction swiftly.
That’s the distinct position in comparison to the other games.
The only dangerous enemies are in the Canal and the Feeding Through. Namely the mobs which explode.
That’s it, on death effect. They are a check for having basic res and EHP for the stage as a hindrance for the fight.
For a ‘average joe’ this is utterly unrealistic to achieve even remotely. The game provides you with tons of resources but they’re all extremely limited without the respective knowledge base.
A common player starting Maps will have 30-40% res overall at everything, some might be worse… some might be better.
Only experienced players are res capped by that time.
Nigh nobody uses trade, it’s around 10% of the playerbase only, probably more now with the currency exchange and the asynchronous trade. That’s not average joe.
There is not a single build which is ‘viable’ in PoE’s landscape that has to ‘manually dodge attacks’.
As stated, some of your pieces can be shop-bought white items with the Affix slapped on and it would provide a better result even.
So no, it’s not the game’s fault there.
Don’t rely on drops only, make your success.
There is not a single item outside of the boss-specific drops which can only drop in empowered.
The sole difference for drop-rate comes from corruption. That’s it.
Yes, and we cannot expect people which have their limit so low it’s scraping the core of the planet be a viable point of contention.
LE is not the game for that, wasn’t ever designed to provide the environment for those players.
Above D4 levels of that limit.
Thoughtless repetition has a extremely low ceiling, true.
Thoughtful repetition has a extremely high one for a large portion of people.
The overall ceiling of skill is based on interest (engagement and curiosity hence) and IQ actually if we wanna be very clear about things.
The lower the IQ the lower the ceiling.
That’s absolutely wrong.
Much like you can teach someone who showed no interest in cooking for the last 30 years techniques and causing them to get actually interested… to suddenly get a massive increase in skill despite doing it thousands of hours… so is it the case in videogames as well.
The deeper your curiosity goes and the more critical you analyze your actions the more progress will be made.
What you’re describing is a flattening of the curve simply, the ceiling isn’t reached for thousands of hours in technique for most people.
The vast majority of people doesn’t interact with anything at more then surface level. So yes… I can say ‘git gud’ because to become that you need to go past the surface a bit. Not much… but dunking that head under the surface line a little is often times more then sufficing.
And that is the factually wrong part.
Uber-bosses in PoE are easier then Uberroth comparably.
Nigh every class can tackle them and be successful at the same pace as the majority of able classes in LE related to Uberroth.
Hence the classes which have upsides for bossing have a severe upside in PoE even for that content… much makes it positioned quite a lot further pack in difficulty
My timeframe was stated for a reason.
And as said before, some pieces of your gear are so bad that any white base would provide a better result when crafted on. You’ll drop more then ‘2-3’ hence.
LP wasn’t ever expected to exist by the time the balancing of empowered was done and accepted as ‘decent’. No exalteds existed. No LP items. 150-200 corruption was the norm.
Now you got those methods, there wasn’t any major adjustments (only scaling ones) and you wanna tell me suddenly the before accepted 150-200c isn’t a state reachable anymore without the new methods?
Bollocks in my book.
With 1 LP fully dished out characters and T22 items you’re supposed to have killed Aberroth already.
Yes, and it suffices for every character, even one which would scale with ward commonly.
That’s why I stated you’re supposed to take crit reduction first before moving over to that.
Which is on items as much as crit avoidance is by the way.
Priority over res even as it halves the potential incoming damage per alpha strike.
You can deal with uncapped res… it’s really hard to deal with double damage.
All the rambling you provide there is nonsensical if you just follow the basics. YOu’re making it more complex then it is.
Doesn’t matter, item Affixes with shit tree suffice for that stage even.
Umh… it actually has a similar one. Not as severe, which showcases the lack of longevity of the product as a whole in comparison. But it definitely has nearly as steep dropoffs.
I made some graph comparisons here somewhere in the forum as proof for that since people argued endlessly.
It’s really not a major difference… but it’s a visible one which accumulates.
Nothing points to it being the empowered step itself doing that though actually. And trust me there… I tried to find the distinct universal reason if one is available… but it’s a compilation of several ones which are nearly all as important as the other.
You’re right though that the difficulty hitch between normal and empowered is one factor. Another is smoothness of progression, especially as mentioned Lagon. Another is long-term itemization. That one is responsible for the atrocious floor-level of players actually.
I would argue around 20-30% of longer-term players. Goal-driven gameplay is still going strong rather then ‘forever playing’. There just isn’t much to reach and reliably even less so.
Longer-term players are those playing more then 20 hours in a league, so roughly 40% of the total playerbase (there was a study on invested times for live-service games, which is where I take this number from).
To get the full number we multiply the total playercount by roughly 5 compared to release peak and get the total players (not everyone plays at the same time and it aligns roughly with sales numbers too)
So when we get 80k peak it means we got 400k individuals playing. Which means we get 160k long-term players. Which means from that we have around 32k players at the low end doing something like that in my estimation.
Around 2% if I remember right? So actually quite the substantial subset.
Willing.
As mentioned… unless you got a learning disability of some sort. Which is fine and nothing to be ashamed of. Dunno why people feel ‘less’ with that stuff, it’s a hindrance definitely but doesn’t make someone a different person.
WoT is filled with a boatload of people relaxing and not even turning their brain on. Unless you reach around 90th percentile you’re not ‘good’… because the majority doesn’t even try.
It’s outside of competitive gameplay (which is a mess because of the RNG shots and hits) not a sweaty game.
One of my closest friends is a speedrunner, autistic as heck… his hyperfixation. He does things like deathless runs in Dark Souls. I can absolutely tell you… that dude is not very dextrous… slightly above average, most physical workers have better dexterity them him. Still, 99,5% unicom WoT player.
I’ll tell you why. Fixation. Diving deep. He’s not talented, he’s hard-working at that stuff.
Sure, you cannot get beyond a specific peak, which is why he’s not at the 99,9% which is mandatory for competitions… but you can damn well outpace all the other people which don’t put effort into shit.
I don’t like to have a paid class. And the term “pay to win” is wrong, because there is nothing to win in Last epoch. It is game and how you play it is your own choice. The highest Supporter Packs cost more than the base game
Have GGG released figures for that (prior to the changes you mention)?
Yes, which is higher in empowered, so his statement is correct. Your statement about only certain boss drops requiring being in empowered or a certain corruption is also correct but not related to what he said.
Yeah, I kinda agree that some people are just better at certain things than others, though engagement/interest does also play a role, as you say.
We will agree to disagree here then. A build is not meant to farm several different sets of gear according to many possible states in the game. You are meant to farm one set of gear which has what you need for the end game build. Any new gear you have is a direct upgrade over the other, that is, same affixes (assuming you have the 4 correct ones) but higher tiers.
D4 audience is the BAD players, the kind of players who play mobile games and who think pressing one button to send their waifus on auto battle is riveting game play (nothing against waifus on games of course).
PoE audience is the sweaty try hard players who need to be very good at the game.
LE audience is what stays in between that, the average players who want to actually play a game that has some challenge but at the same time isn’t putting a progression wall in front of them. From there you will still have a variety of average skills, from the bellow average who probably stop at 300 corruption because they are not that good but still within the lower average to the above average which are going to get to maybe 700 or 800 corruption because they are a bit better and most people hopefully make it to around 500. However all of these people need to be able to farm the gear and grand blessings they need hence the bare minimum start point is empowered monoliths at 100 corruption, after that you can start increasing the difficulty but you don’t stop people before that point.
The flying demons can be a problem with the ranged attack and the jump and I did say Act 10, not just there so the corrupted versions of the templars with nets that slow down and the guys that use the bouncing maga orbs, those are very dangerous too especially together.
I think I only once reached maps and didn’t had resistances capped and that was due to extreme bad luck on drops both gear and currency so I couldn’t afford it but other than that I was always able to buy whatever I was lacking right in tier 1 maps. Granted I don’t get to maps in 3 hours like sweaty try hards. It takes me bare minimum 1 day (2 if we count release day which I only play a couple hours) usually 2 days so there is already a decent selection up for trade.
Anyone not doing SSF will trade. You are completely delirious if you think most people aren’t trading.
Plenty do, in fact most do at low to mid budget. It’s only at high budget that you no longer need to dodge but here’s the thing, average players don’t get to high budget.
What is better, 1 extra affix? 2 extra affixes, that is nothing in the context we were talking about. It wouldn’t change anything which is why I didn’t bothered except for one case I failed to realize. If that was the goal post I might as well keep waiting for something better to drop because it will not matter in the scheme of how much more damage I’d be able to take.
Yes, the drop rate and drop quality are the only difference and it’s a night and day difference. I can farm the same amount of gear with better quality in an hour in empowered as in a day or 2 in normal. Farming in normal is about as fun as a kick in the nuts.
This is where you don’t understand how good you are. To you average looks like dogshit but guess what, that is average, not bad. Its you who has to come to terms with what the average skill is, not people who have to magically get their skill to a point you are happy to call average.
Also D4 is orders of magnitude lower than this. D4 skill is probably lower than poligon journalist levels.
This is just pure BS and you know it.
My main interest in games are 4X and realistic FPS and I’m average at both too. ARPGs are a big interest too if not as big and yet still average. WoT has much lower interest yet I am much better and I have the same level of investment. I’m terrible at sport games and to be fair I don’t love them so potentially you could say I am not doing what I can to learn but even then something more would be there if I kept trying and it didn’t.
Interest is not going to do more than willingness to keep going despite adversity and if you think lower IQ means being worse at a game then you probably would be surprised that some of the best players in some games are dumb as bricks and some extremely intelligent people suck at games.
We’re talking about games here. If you have no interest in them why are you playing them? You are just being disingenuous.
Except that mechanical skill is surface level no matter how you put it, it’s pattern recognition and how fast your reflexes are and learning how to switch up a lot of things in the build to make things work temporarily is not getting just a bit past the surface, it’s getting so deep in it that most people aren’t able to. Not to mention most people do not want to farm several different sets of gear, they want to work towards one because keeping things simple is always best.
Uber uber bosses in PoE are harder. Again I see most people having a lot more difficulty than what I saw people beat uberroth, in fact most uberroth kills I’ve seen they hardly looked like they were even trying, granted good players and all but in PoE they are sweating the whole time.
Of course, I have no experience with either and ultimately pinnacle content has 0 interest to me in either game, but from what I’ve seen given that I cannot experience it, PoE seems a lot harder.
Again, better result on a “white piece” after several atempts and wasted shards is still going to be 1 or 2 more affixes, it’s hardly any difference to be worth doing it. It’s better to wait for a decent drop to craft on.
For most people, uberroth is probably not even doable in 4LP items all across the board. In general people who do Uberroth are people in 2 and 3 LP gear, and some of the non legendary gear is often better than just T22.
Could an extremely skilled person do it with less? Probably, skill can account for a lot but most people won’t bother with it as it’s not fun and a huge waste of time.
Also don’t forget that scaling has also changed in corruption and corruption now is a lot more powerful than it was before so yes, you didn’t had all those things and people were doing still 1K corruption and more before, then these things came in and guess what, people were pushing 3K+ corruption no problem. Then they made corruption so much stronger that we are back to 1K+ being generally accept as S tier build territory.
“User added context” - No it doesn’t.
Or you know, you do what is right which is allow people to get their grand blessings so they don’t have to farm untold sets of gear and have to farm in normal which takes forever and is so fun that people quit in 1 week… You know, choices to take into consideration for the developers.
But you do you. You think it’s fine to disrespect player’s time by forcing them to farm at a point where it’s not good to farm for week. so that they can then very slowly start to try and farm only slightly above then you know what, fair enough. I’m just telling you that is why people are quitting.
“User added context” - No it doesn’t.
Again I will have to disagree, average player count (not necessarily after a week but not that long after) is lower than 2K peak. That is incredibly bad. These are the people who actually push past 1K and potentially a few streamers who do it and then move on to another game.
The overwhelming majority, probably 80 to 90% will not ever reach 1K corruption in a week, heck, they will not even push corruption in empowered because they are quitting prior to that.
No, you are wrong. It’s not that people aren’t willing, like I told you before in this post. It’s a game, if you are playing it you are at least to some degree invested in it. You are not playing while having no interest or willingness to get better and do better in general. If we said mobile gaming where you click something and wait for results then maybe, this are just people burning time on their way home, they aren’t so much playing a game as they are watching time pass a little less slow.
You may think that but you are wrong. Sure enough, plenty of people turn their brains off when playing WoT and guess what, they are either bad or bellow average. A good player can turn brain off and still do well cause it’s kinda on auto pilot at that point and he’s already good but anyone who simply plays it with their brain turned off as you say will be bad.
Someone in the upper 90% of the player base in WoT is someone around the 5000 or higher WN8 which is to say someone able to participate in e-sport level competition just so you understand how far off base you are.
If your friend can get there, he is extremely good at it.
i didn’t played a lot of diablo3 so no, i didn’t complain because i wasn’t aware of it, i have 345h in last epoch, paid 80€ for skin to support the dev and it’s only because i’m a big poe player, i’m accustomed to buying mtx to support my fav game but i know not everyone is, poe wasn’t doing any money from mtx at his early stats, it took time for people to actualy build trust to support their favorite game, last epoch need time to get profitable, with bad communication, P2W, shit road map, i was trusting that game when they said there will not be any paid content, i really loved that game and wanted to put my trust in it, trust that have been broken, obviously i want the succes of this game but there is a lot of different way to earn moneu, anyways, i’m yaping, i loved this game.
Yeah, they mentioned it in a interview that even in the trade league only a fraction of the players use it, I think it was 10-20%, I don’t perfectly remember anymore. It was… I think 2 or 3 years ago mentioned.
I dunno if you quoted the wrong thing… but your answer makes no sense there.
I argued about the content and how difficulty-wise it is able to be achieved. I dunno how you get to farming multiple sets of gear.
Aberroth can simply be killed with the normal gear you generally run.
D4 demands more skill then mobile games of the genre do comparably with the same rought level of skill for input.
By far more even.
You#re setting the bar a bit too low there.
Not really unless you’re - once more - a pure glasscannon, which would make you fail in the canal and in maps anyway.
Yeah, you don’t slam into them, their range is basically non-existent. As a melee character you’re supposed to have learned basic positioning by that time and as a ranged character you never have any issue either.
I’m a experienced player in PoE, it’s my main ARPG to be exact, with several characters having beaten the pinnacle bosses, non-OP builds to mention that.
I’ve over the course of the many years played in a total of 22 leagues (paused for a few times for other games and general life).
To date I’ve managed to get 7 first-time characters into maps with res cap.
I’m one of the people which plays that commonly at Day 1 and I rush since I’m experienced… hence there is no market to buy anything from yet. And despite my experience at the game I generally lack some resistances at a sometimes substantial manner while entering maps.
A few maps with 20-30% res is no big issue for most builds, not a great experience but also not something which causes overly major issues as you get half-way decent gear in maps really swiftly.
This was a official statement in interviews with the developers.
Also factually wrong.
Any build which is demanded to ‘dodge’ generally (and not simply have decent positioning to not get slapped into the ground, which is a basic skill of the genre) is a non-viable build as it wouldn’t be able to even get into the vast majority of farming strats.
No matter the build you always either have positioning (minion builds) or you demolish enemies before they can even become a major danger. Exceptions for singular enemies and some bosses… as well as some mechanics like expedition at times (if you’re lazy and don’t care about defense or evasion based mods being added)
You’re making my point.
A single item with T5 health and some res without any offensive modifiers is sufficing already and would’ve been upgrades comparatively.
As a general reminder… as you progress survival is the primary factor, up until the point where you can start scaling damage to such degrees that killing enemies before they have reasonable time to act becomes a option. Or you reach a skill level to avoid the vast majority of abilities (which few manage to do)
Oh piss off with that argumentation line plainly spoken. You don’t know me, you haven’t seen me play, so don’t assume shit. It’s not only annoying but bears absolutely no value. You can make up anything this way.
On what are you basing it? Because I managed to get to 500+c? Because I actually use my brain to think for a minute when I get trashed completely to find out what value I need to improve to avoid that in the future?
Because my statements towards you are based on your build versus the guide you provided back then. So we got a proper example of what it actually is.
Where do you have that for me?
Nowhere? Good… then plainly spoken screw off with that type of comment.
Even if personal skill level would play a role here… if you go into D4 and play it… then go into PoE 1 and play it… then you get a grasp on what is ‘in between’ clearly unless you’re incompetent.
Simple as that.
This is a universal model by the way.
Doesn’t distinct topic.
It’s the same in communication. In sports. In crafts. In science… everywhere.
The human mind has some areas for everyone it excels at… but outside of different neurological wiring (which in that severty is commonly called a disability because it diverts from the norm, upsides or not existing since they come with severe downsides in return as well and society) the differences are surprisingly small, mostly reliant on interest. The only exceptions are physical based actions, hence dexterity, endurance and strength.
Willing to.
Capacity is available in the majority actually.
Willingness is not. The vast majority of people aren’t putting effort (including building a knowledge base hence) into the vast majority of things they do. Why would you think this would be bigger for a entertainment product? It’s less so even as necessity is not there which at least puts some to do it at least.
As someone who’ve played both games I can with guarantee tell you that is false information.
That’s why Uberroth is such a disliked piece of content. It’s beyond the limits of what even PoE provides, which is the core issue.
We can see that at completion numbers as well, nigh nobody completes Uberroth… but pinnacle bosses in PoE are regular content for the majority of higher-skilled players. Uberroth is not in LE.
Unless you want to say that the professional ARPG players which make it their whole lifelyhood are for some reason all universally incapable of dealing with Uberroth despite it being ‘easier’ as you state.
It’s a nonsensical argument, and as someone who’s played ARPGs for over 10000 hours in my life by now I can absolutely tell you which bosses are for which reason hard/easy and how they roughly compare.
So since:
How about letting you be told then by someone who actually does instead of telling the one who has experienced and compared it that they’re wrong?
It is, as stated. You’ll get a T5 health Affix + a res Affix to T4 at least. That’s all that’s needed to be superior to what you had.
You can play broken record about it as much as you want, it won’t change that fact no matter how often you repeat it.
Not talking about Uberroth. I said Aberroth. Those are 2 different pieces of content.
If someone is unable to kill Aberroth with 4 LP items and fully decked out then they chose the wrong game.
If they have fun, great!
If not… leave.
If they demand it to be changed for them… laugh.
Scaling, yes.
The early parts of corruption have barely been touched. It’s the progression along the way which changed and becomes harder faster. It starts out nearly the same though.
What’s right is following the basics of the basics rather then wanting to enforce ‘your own personal flavor’ - which is nonsensical by the way - onto the game in general.
I’m the first calling out nonsensical design which is unfitting. I take issue with many aspects of the game. From itemization, to crafting, to the factions, to boss ward, to the actual content positioning and more.
But what you ask? I’ll defend it tooth and nail to state ‘if it’s done what you ask for the game would be in even more shit then it is even now’. And you should know how hard that is to achieve.
The switch to empowered itself is not a major burden yet… it’s not smooth, that’s the sole actual existing issue which needs to be solved, the difficulty itself not at that point.
You’re talking about the so called ‘player floor’.
You’re wrong in thinking that those are solely long-term players. A portion is returning player which play rather casually time-wise. Sure, as it closes in to the floor then you’ll see the percentile of long-term players visible ever more.
Which is why I’m stating that the playercount during that time being so low is highly problematic as it showcases issues for the longevity of the grinding enjoyment itself.
As for short-term losses? Each grating experience causes a slight reduction in retention. This is what we can actually see directly at the steepness of the falloff over time. That is not extreme actually…
The biggest issues of LE are longevity and/or replayability (you can either cause a ton of replay value through different playstyles or creating a thousands of hours long system which is always rewarding after latest ~1 hour of consecutive playtime in some form) and hence the lack of dedicated playerbase for the long-term.
This is not only where the majority of income comes from but also always the focus on who to cater towards. Increasing this number is the biggest factor for success for any live-service game.
Reduction of difficulty as you demand is majorly raising the short-term engagement but actually reducing the long-term engagement as those investing time for extensive amounts are unwilling to feel underwhelmed to a hefty degree. Also people are - in general - unwilling to go through switchups of difficulty which is why I’m stating a major focus is to be taken to smoothing out the experience.
Only when the experience is smoothes out difficulty-wise then the actual difficulty issues can even be seen. Too hard? Too easy? That’s solely a scaling aspect then and can be adjusted accordingly. But without a baseline it’s just a nonsensical approach as we don’t even know which playerbase is the primary long-staying one since everyone is annoyed at the messy changes there.
You would be surprised…
I wish it were true, would make it so much better if people actually engage which stuff they do rather then just not engaging in ‘other’ stuff… but it’s not the case.
Yes, and every genre has a different amount of people ‘scooting’ along without their brain on.
In nearly every game which has reached a specific size it’s a universal rule though that more players means a bigger percentile of people with ‘their brain turned off’ play at the same time. It’s a given as the percentile of people which actually engage is miniscule, always.
That’s why you’re able to see people with even middling IQ being ‘wizards’ at what they do in any place you go. You don’t need to be a genius IQ person to achieve a great result… you just need to have the technique for progress down and willingness to engage. That’s all.
The vast majority of humanity doesn’t have that.
You’ve just said that you’ve done pinnacle content several times with non-OP builds so you weren’t even brute forcing the bosses with massive DPS. If you don’t think that is above average then you are definitely out of touch.
You know the quote that most players don’t finish the campaign? That is the average player, so if you’re getting into white maps you’re already above average & pinnacle bosses are substantially harder than white maps are they nit?
Plus you’ve been playing PoE for well over 7 years, is that “average”?
Ok, and you’ve killed them with several characters that weren’t OP, by your own admission & yet you still think that you’re average?
I can find lots of posts stating the game is too easy causing players to get bored and quit early though.
You don’t need to get mechanically better, you need to improve your overall knowledge of the game, this way you can identify flaws in your build and devise a solution.
It’s possible the build guide was outdated and that is why there are so many questionable decisions being made.
I’d consider myself better than the average player based only on the premise that I’ve played arpgs for years (and even that isn’t necessarily true). It’s not the difficulty of monos per say that prevents me from completing them, the gear grind is just a massive turn off for me and I get frustrated / bored. I don’t think the retention problem is a skill issue more than it is a content issue.
Long way of saying I agree. The difficulty of the campaign is simple, but monos scaling infinitely means you can always find your soft caps. That doesn’t mean everybody will, and I don’t think the average player wants to. Some people really love it and cool, but I’d firmly agree that monos aren’t engaging enough for the average player.
Yes, and I didn’t state the sheer amount of time invested to achieve that.
So it has no basis for the skill yet.
And I can tell you… I need too long for that
Anyone who uses as much time as I do and isn’t utterly awful at the game can achieve it. Just throw yourself at it repeatedly until you can even know which attack comes solely by the sound-design. I played them far too much simply.
And the absolutely worthless aspect for any live-service game though. Low staying power, low paying power.
Sure, you need a few always but they’re never the focus unless you want your product to fail.
SP game and MP game I would agree, all fine, 100% so! Live-service sadly ‘nah’. Unfeasable.
So we need to start with the design for the ‘avergae live-service player’ and not the one which plays it like a SP game.
Those that stay and pay. Makes no sense otherwise. And yes… I wish it were different and it sucks that those games cannot focus on the singular experience but need to enforce designing their game for ‘keep player as long as possible’.
The only exception is when it’s focused on repeated engagement over and over… but for that we would need at max a 3-4 month cycle which is realiable and rock-solid to happen as nothing else.
Time /= skill.
Yes, because it’s extremely taxing content for me at which I struggle to get through, which is why I need such immense amounts of time and effort to overcome it.
Uberroth comparatively is even worse, it’s stressful even when overprepping and barely doable, beyond my frustration limit where I say ‘it’s still viable to do’. And that comes from someone who went and beat 150 Exarchs since I wanted to beat the uber version.
This, 100%
The grinding aspect in LE is one of the least enjoyable ones in the genre, if not the least enjoyable. The core foundation of the experience sadly.
