There’s a difference between ‘multiplayer’ and ‘coop’, don’t say your game is going to be multiplayer and have little reason to interact with anyone.
I really liked LE crafting system when I imagined it alongside a trading system, otherwise its limited and annoying to be forced to use it exclusively along with the ‘target’ farm system (which for me feels bad).
Isn’t this BETA, aren’t you supposed to be testing things out?
Did I miss the Trade week/end?
I think we missed the internal/private discussions they had with the white knight purists who think RNG-centric, carrot/stick gaming is the only way to keep players ‘engaged’.
Since you quoted D2 have you forgotten the SOJ as currency? LE would be Exanguinous 2LP or Bastion 2LP (just making up an example regardless of inherent value to a solo player). Are you unaware or seen the inception of D2jsp and how it’s impacted the whole meta game, sets an unequal playing field for ladderboards, and provides one group (traders) a distinct advantage over solo players? What D3 did was botch this on launch with RMT only to shift items to bound and compensate by increasing the drop rates.
Trying to discuss the advantages of trade and quoting these two game economies in particiular is hilarious but it feels like there should be a compromise in the middle that benefits friends in some capacity.
Also, have you played these two games back to back for a couple hundred hours and compared your progress and satisfaction of both progression and build enabling/quality drops? Not finding something in LE makes me think you’re not even playing (or playing peak efficiency at least) to not have a substantially better time than either of these two games with open economies.
I can imagine that EHG does not want their IP showing up on D2jsp or similar sites. Therefor no open trade. I think that is the correct decision, as it avoids the toxicity of the zoom zoom at all costs gameplay style that comes with open trade. However they have actually already provided open trade. It is called offline mode 
Maybe if you would actually read the other posts or have any basic level of critical thought at all, you would easily be able to see that some people want a system that would allow them to gear out their friends as soon as they start playing. “Trade” doesn’t stop that, it is easy to trade the most basic (1g) to get all the loot that your friend would want to give you. Thus, getting items without playing.
Why are you too dense to see that?
There are countless examples in other games where people “twink” out their newly joined friends.
In your quest to white knight, did you ever bother thinking why SoJ became the currency of choice?
Well let’s start with:
a) Gold being nearly worthless in D2. Outside of gambling, what was it used for?
b) Gold amounts limited that you could hold and stash
c) Severely limited stash space to hold items
d) After time, the end-game dominated the land scape, so trading only occurred among the highest levels of gear.
e) SoJ had a decent drop rate, while still being a desired item, so it made a decent currency item
f) No in-game trade support, outside of basic swapping. So the players decided how, and what would be done/used. Which eventually becomes the domain of the top-level players to dictate.
So what happened? The players decided upon a useful item, that took the minimum amount of space to store.
And as for your point of playing at peak efficiency in order to obtain gear. You contention is that requiring spreadsheet calculations for farming patterns and methods is a good design for a game?
It’s this kind of nonsense that causes games to fail and turn players away. And, really, your attempt at showcasing D2’s failures highlights even more how the elitist mentalities sour everything they touch.
Please, try harder while soapboxing next time.
And why is it bad to have friends help friends so they can play together? You think players will just give gear to someone, in the hopes they stop playing and never use the gear? For someone railing on about “critical thought”, you sure don’t apply any yourself.
The argument that trade allows players to acquire BiS gear without even playing has failed so absurdly, that your strawman of friends helping friends, so they can play together, is the next best thing you can come up with? Sadly laughable… Yeah, it would be sooooo terrible if friends were able to help each other with a leg-up, in order to attract more players to the game. We’d sure hate for that to happen, huh?
I’m sorry, but limiting trade has no basis, whatsoever. If the devs want to use D3’s draconian system, that’s their decision. But it really has no defense in reality, especially along the lines you, and other sycophants are coming up with, in the hopes of obtaining your White Knight forum badges.
I never said that. Then you claim I am the one making the strawman. Projecting much?
My original post that you quoted were 2 separate thoughts, thus the line gap between them.
One point is that trade or AH’s allow players to get top gear a lot easier, killing the desire to keep playing by removing one of the driving forces.
My other point was that free trade among friends (which several have asked for), is just a way to give friends things without them having played the game.
Every type of economy in these types of games gets abused and ends up negatively effecting everyone else that plays. Just look at Aura stacking in PoE. The very highest of elite players causes skills to be nerfed. Those skills are also used by casual players in non-abusive ways. Those casual players are negatively effected by what the elite players do.
It’s also hilarious that you admitted to my exact argument. “it would be sooooo terrible if friends were able to help each other with a leg-up”. You are predictable.
I think the argument to limit trade also does not consider the alternative to what EHG is now arguing for.
They claim that they want players to enjoy ‘the journey’ to find the item that they care about - however, limiting trade means that the same journey is effectively polluted with other drops that could have been exciting were they able to be traded/gifted between players. It means that there are infinitely more items that the player simply cannot use.
The same ‘journey’, meant to be a pleasant experience, to achieve a dream build is no longer nearly as exciting as it would have been were the player to come across items that they may not use, but knowing that there was higher potential value in trading it to another player.
I suggested “trade partys” for a while now. Takes one week realtime to form one or join one. In said trade partys can be a set number of players… 8… 12 or whatever seems to fit the design. Said players can trade freely. You get a Cooldown of a week to leave a trade party and another week to join another trade party.
No idea how to name it but…
All problems solved and all people who are “hurt” are the ones that trade and have a far faster playcycle and “no content” faster then people who play ssf or play LE like a single player game. No divide in the playerbase and no need to change droprates. Friends can help each other and RMT people have long waiting times what makes RMT unintresting.
On the other hand I’m maybe blind and missed something and if I combine this with the fact that I’m not the most sharp tool in the shed I’m maybe totaly wrong.
All I want is a well thought through and executed trading/gifting or whatever you want to call it ysytem insted of a dumped down D3 trade.
I’ve been playing arpgs and “hack and slash” games for 30 years now. I have never stopped playing a game just because i got good gear. I’ve met no one that stopped playing a game because they got good gear. Make a good game so people keep coming back, make a shit game people got to end and leave.
If getting a gear would kill the desire to keep playing, everyone would ditch the game when they find a good item regardless of trade.
Have you ever met anyone that “Plays” Path of Building? Those are players that quit when they get to the end of character development. I am one of those players. Ask most people that do item editors how long they play with the character that they give the BiS gear to.
There needs to be a driving force to play.
I’m not saying that there aren’t games that have that beyond the loot progression. I am saying that LE is not one of those games at the moment.
This doesn’t seem like that bad of an idea, but there is no pleasing everyone. There will still be a large number of players that would complain that it wasn’t open enough to abuse.
Stop it. The moment that open trade is available, all those items that you drop on the way aren’t worth anything and won’t help you get the one or two top tier items you want. Another PoE example. Tabula Rasa. In SSF, it is pretty great. Go to a trade league and find one and it is not much better than vendor garbage.
I´m disapointed too. I can say that I will stop advertising this game too my friends after this development update. Reasons are obviuous and were posted in this thread many times by others. Game is uninstalled now and I will maybe or not check status after 1.0 which is realy sad.
This is topic where I´m missing old days in forums/discussions when you could use not only positive thumb up but also negative thumb down.
Ill try keep this short but I think this is a step in the right direction and any lover of games will understand why…because it makes you play the game.
I have played Runescape since 2002, I quit several times but always went back. Even went back to try oldschool and I got seriously addicted because I finally tried ironman mode.
I developed a new love for oldschool runescape after trying ironman mode because i was forced to play the game. Finally after all these years I could appreciate the game from the developers point of view instead of always worrying about how much GP per hour im making for the Auction House sales.
EVERYTHING has Value when you play the game properly, When you play a game and always buy things and sell things to an Auction House it completely changes the dynamics of a game.
Huge respect to the Devs for making this change, Please do not let the PoE fan base ruin this game as they will all move to D4 or PoE2 when it launches any way and i think its much better if LE can stamp their own mark in the ARPG genre just like GrimDawn and Titan Quest has done.
It’s funny you should mention two games that both have the standard multiplayer arpg trading.
I’m going to wear my bias on my sleeve.
For my opinion, I like that trade is not something EHG will need to balance around. Trade was the reason PoE’s harvest had to die. Trade killed my baby and I will never forgive it. I wish there was a way everyone got what they wanted but it seems we are at an impasse.
Hey,
These posts start to go on the line that there is no respect for others opinions regarding the topic.
Can everyone just give their opinion possibly solution suggestion about trading that its not exploitable and leave it there?
These decisions are towards 0.9 and not nailed forever, EHG said that they take suggestions gladly to find ”middle ground” but i know this might be ”too late ” for some, which is unfortunate to lose players.
Respect for both sides.
It physically hurts me to get involved here - but I as 3rd generation seller, avid gamer and experienced game dev worker, can’t stay aside, unfortunately… This particular crossroad of themes is too important for me.
Questionable statement. THIS subgenre’s roots are somewhere near PnP Dungeons & Dragons. Which is by no means Rogue-like.
Well, that’s how real-life economy works. And will work for ever.
If you don’t like it, implement fixed prices and get over it. It’ll be easier (and shall do much more good) than inventing multi-layered restrictions (which will be bypassed, one way or another, anyway).
It is THEIR choice to make, not yours.
That’s THEIR choice to make too - assuming that you’d stick with deadborn idea of trying limiting healthy flow of economics evolution.
With a deep feel of regret I have to inform you that this is not your choice either. It’s OUR, players’, choice.
Please abstain from deciding for us what’s good for us at least with those basic questions.
The game offers an opportunity to farm currency for potential future trade for build enabling item? Good. I can play my way while amassing currency passively while being sure that it won’t be futile.
The game offers means for target farming build enabling item? Bad. I have to focus on said target farming - with uncertain result.
The game offers BOTH possibilities and then some? Well, excellent! While people tend to plan ahead (as you noticed), people are not necessarily stick with plans. Because people want to play, not work, you know.
This is my choice to make. Not yours.
So basically we have post-raid loot share from World of Warcraft. With items which are inherently account-bound and all that shit.
I heared you.
It’s not for me.
Thank you for saving my time. You’ve just freed up 3 months worth of my spare time which I was about to dedicate to waiting for 0.9.0 .
I cordially apologize for being unrestrained with my choice of words.
But you’re about to make an unrecoverable mistake. Strategic mistake which will haunt you to the end of project’s days.
The only thing I can do about it is to provide my feedback ‘as is’.
Because it’s YOUR choice to make.
And I’m not going to make that choice for you.
Cheers!
Upd. Afterthoughts after aftershock.
Wealth is a vital part of player’s progression.
Because it gives choices. Really meaningful choices - but only if players can utilize said wealth.
The only right choice game design wise here is to either allow it or prohibit it.
Everything else results in schizo half-measures, redundant inventory cluttering and players’ strained wrists.
Did you ever thought that ‘ruined economy’ IS a HEALTHY state of economy?
People farm for valuables. It’s healthy and natural.
Different items qualify as valuables at different times. It’s healthy and natural.
Economy suffers shake-ups because of said valuable definition changes. It’s healthy and natural.
The only bad thing which could happen from said shake-ups is that some players might end up with stashes full of junk from time to time. But that’s THEIR CHOICE TO MAKE. Cash in or keep waiting for opportunity to sell for more. It’s healthy and natural.
And the rest is a futile attempt to invent something that would beat 2000+ years of development of real-world econmics traditions. Good luck with that.
This is the worst choice you could have made. Implementing a trading system would have added several interesting features to the end game. 1-The ability to plan a build in detail and be able to purchase parts in the market. 2-the possibility of being able to dedicate one’s time to crafting and in-game research of the objects necessary to produce the objects to be sold (runes and basic objects). 3-the ability to resell the objects found to earn currency to invest in the purchase of more suitable objects for your build. The decision you made to only use instanced item trades will make the end game boring very quickly, effectively making it an endless grind of echoes in the hopes of getting a useful item for your character. This seems to me a decision made for convenience, not wanting to commit to finding a way to implement a balanced economy in the game rather than the impossibility of doing so.
This is your choice to make.
However, abstain from projecting your choices to other players.
I finish playing when I decide that I accomplished my goals (or when goals I set became clearly unreachable). Whatever my goals are, these are my goals. It’s noone’s job to decide my goals for me explicitly.
Cope with it.