Item Gifting Development Update from our Principal Game Designer

Developer Blog
266

I’m relatively sure that you would have a different attitude towards disappointed people when a strategy change in development would affect an aspect of the game that you were invested in and that was a selling point in the first place.

The “subject to change” thing is true. But on the other hand EHG advertised the (successful) funding of the game with a bunch if features they promised to implement. And therefore people were willing to spend money upfront for an unfinished product they expected to shape in a direction they like.

With your argumentation EHG could turn into a jump & run and everything would be okay. A more realistic scenario would be if they would cut off MP. Then there would be people like “I don’t care about MP”. But this is irrelevant. The product doesn’t match the description it was advertised with.

This seems like a minor issue to you. But for others it’s a main feature.

What baffles me is the lack of empathy with the people that are upset by some people here.

Even if you don’t bother, you need to accept that people are upset because the devs stripped a feature they wanted to have in the game.

There are also many people that aren’t that affected by this but they fear for the future of LE without a trade economy. Because a trade economy in a live service game is an acknowledged design pillar that improves success and longevity in a video game.

But I don’t want to discuss this here.

My point is that I find it hilarious to put people down that are upset when a promised and advertised feature is stripped of a priduct they bought.

It’s ok to be disappointed. And the comments so far are all very civil.

EHG is not reliant on player funding currently. Since the Tencent investment they told that the development of 1.0 is save from now on.

How you phrase it it seems you think the player base is responsible for the Wolcen fail… What… ??How… ?? Don’t know what else to say…

The fact alone that they voluntarily offer refunds proofes several things:

  • They are aware that this is a “broken promise”
  • They really care for their community and understand the disappointment and want to be kind (and maybe not get sued for - don’t know if this is possible at this point)

EHG could take the same stance as you do: Its EA, we wrote it, you signed it. But this is not how EHG acts. They are still with all these people here that write negative comments. Because THEY have the empathy that parts of this community are lacking.

3 Likes
267

In all honesty @Heavy EHG could serve you up a platter of crap, and you would still white knight it, people are disappointed, your not, thats great, but show a bit of courtesy and empathise with people who bought and invested in a game & studio that is doing complete 360’s on stuff promised that are not happy, honestly its not difficult.

I am one of those who wont bother with the game now, i will probably pop in when the seasons start and leave after a couple of days, bit like i do with D3.

3 Likes
268

I already said multiple times that I do understand and the complaints are warranted.
I never downplayed or denied those complaints.

In fact I was the first person on their discord that asked, if EHG would consider refunds for people that absolutely can’t stand this decision.

This has nothing to do with white knighting. If you think I do that, well, whatever.
But I already were very critical about EHG’s decisions on other subjects in the past.

269

Trading is its own game within ARPGs, wich a lot of players enjoy. Personally I don’t mind if they removed trading, even though I wanted it.
I just fear the game won’t have the success it would have with trading, but I hope I’m wrong.

2 Likes
270

Thank you for the explanation.

I basically stopped playing PoE after realizing and trying out its second dimension (external trade systems). I would have to invest my time into making game money, and go for that capability first, before I can play for fun and experimentation.
Surprisingly similar to the real world?
I didn’t want to have two layers of that before having fun.

If players know they can’t trade a drop, get nothing much for selling it, and don’t need the affixes of it, they might be more willing to gift it in the party/instance. It is up to the player community to gift or withhold items, and play it as SSF or not. Maybe that player lands on your friend list, and can pay a gift back in the future?

I’m open to see how it feels. The inherent higher drop rates promise more fun actually playing the game.

271

This system has its own problems, in that people will still use it to “trade”, but they would need to be able to trust the other party to gift them something in return.

But as far as limited trading with not much of an economy, this is pretty good.

I did not expect them to find a perfect system anyways, that does not exist.

272

Horrible decision. You’ve turned LE into an SSF game for a very large portion of the potential playerbase.

I play primarily solo. I don’t want to HAVE to group with people to find certain items; most times I would prefer to farm currency/items/mats/etc. and have a way to obtain it other than by group play. Sure, it may take me weeks or months to find sufficient currency to buy it, but that’s my decision and at LEAST there’s that option.

Now, there will be items that are simply unobtainable for those who don’t want to group-farm certain types of content. If your play time or skillset isn’t sufficient to get you into groups/raids/whatver for certain bosses, you’re completely shut out. You have no alternative; you can’t just farm currency/mats over a longer period in order to obtain it.

Also, I don’t want to have to deal with individuals to group up to get items. I don’t want to deal with potential scammers. I would would much rather use an anonymous third-party bazaar (e.g., World of Warcraft auction house) than have to spam chat (or even engage with chat at all for that matter) in order to obtain items.

What this restriction now adds is having to pay for carries to get certain items, which is just an annoyance. Scenario: I can’t farm it. I can’t trade for it. The only way I can get it is to be in a group that finds it. So if I want item X and I don’t have sufficient equipment/level/skills or an existing group that can get it, gotta pay for carry. WoW carries all over again.

No thanks. This has turned LE into an SSF game for those who don’t want to make group play an INTEGRAL part of their game play or pay for carries.

5 Likes
273

Ever heared of “Chronicles of Elyria”? Kickstarter and EA are abominations that offer developers opportunitys to not deliver at all. On the other hand some good games might’ve never seen a release if they weren’t kickstarted.

As a customer I have so little rights when it comes to software it’s a bad joke. I come from a country where I can step back from a purchase contract in 14 days if something is fishy but I can’t refund a software if it isn’t holding up to the expectations developers promised?

If they can’t deliver they should’nt even start or offer a substitute that matches the idea.

We have still skilltrees and passive trees and I’m sure EVERYONE will be fine if they remove them because we had our fun with it already… I think people would be pissed if this is happening. Sure the Bazar was only on paper but with EHG not giving a rats ass about the feedback in the trade threads and coding something like the gifting system we have right now… That’s something I’m used to get from politicians but not from EHG.

LE was the last EA game I bought and I was pleseantly suprosed by it but there is only one way to realy make an impact in video games: Speak with your vallet!

I know I’ll go crazy if I find a Unique my friend needs but I can’t gift or trade it to him because he was afk for whatever reas0on or not online when it dropped. The logic behind this is so stupid and flawed when it comes to games it’s a clownfiesta.

5 Likes
274

I’ve only started playing LE recently since I heard that multiplayer is close. I’m 50 hours in and even though the end-game is kind of monotonous, I see potential that it can be there with the best ARPGs on the market.

However, and that’s totally fine if this is the developers’ vision of the game, this will not happen without trade. Exchanging items with other people online is one of the building blocks of modern multiplayer ARPGs (since Diablo 1).

LE can stay as a niche game that a hand full of people play, and that’s fine, just not for me and my friends group. I’ll keep my eye on how things develop. Wishing good luck on the Eleventh Hour Games team.

6 Likes
275

I am very pleased with your decision. I hate the way of trading in POE.I’m looking forward.

276

No, it’s also people who want some advantage from the MP aspect of the game, but don’t necessarily want to play in groups. There are lots who fall into this category. Also, a broad trade system helps people who aren’t basement dwellers still obtain good, and rare, gear in a reasonable amount of time.

1 Like
277

Did you stop reading the post after the first few paragraphs?

The entire point of this post is to explain that they are investing in powerful target farming systems instead of trade to acquire gear.

Trasochi brought up smite idols as a direct example of something they want to improve the acquisition rate of, and they also want to tune the potency of existing methods of gaining other gear.

Absolutely nobody is going to need to be a “basement dweller” to acquire gear in a reasonable amount of time. That is precisely what they are trying to avoid.

They want you to play the game, not the market.

I do, however, concede that finding an item your friend could use while you are not in a group will potentially feel awful. I hope they find a solution for that issue once more feedback comes in upon 0.9’s release.

1 Like
278

Hopefully they will add a better filter so I can ignore all the items that drop that are not directly relevant to me. Or I guess I could add it myself since 99% chance filters will be clientside. Gonna be real fun when after 2 days I have t16 items in all slots and can just hide 100% of drops because none of it matters. Imagine how much trade would wreck progression! I might have my endgame gear in under 2 days holy crap that’s crazy.

279

And in turn the sole drive to keep playing the game is gone.

If a friend is trying to find an item, group up and try to find it together. Odds of finding the item will increase with multiple people trying to find it together. This system just doesn’t allow people to get gear without playing.

280

Depends on what you’re drive is.
Some people still enjoy playing a game even if they have BiS equipment, depends on what the game offers gameplay wise.
Some people will want to push leaderboards/arena/corruption and stuff like that.

If someone stops playing a game entirely once they have BiS items it’s for one of two reasons (or both):

  1. That was their goal and they reached it.
  2. The game does not offer enough (quality) gameplay content past collecting items.

There are literally no other reasons to stop playing a game once you have all the items you wanted. You either feel like you beat the game or you get bored. Saying trade will make people reach that point faster can therefore feel like saying you need to drag out item acquisition as much as possible because the game has nothing fun to offer besides that (and even that part is debatable if you have to grind for 100s of hours just to get an item for the first time).

281

They made no mention of that as a requirement, you just need your character to be in the same zone to gift an item, like how PoE works, except not actual trading.

282

Oh, so 4LP item drop chances are being increased, and stat-roll ranges on rare drops are being improved?

Yeah, didn’t think so.

I’d be curious to know, how many 4LP drops have happened since the release of LP. And comparing that rate with “not having to be a basement dweller”.

And yes, I’m talking about End-Game gearing, and not “good enough to beat the game” gear. Because that’s when I decide my character is done, and I can move on to starting an alt. Which, of course, is in direct opposition to the position that “once people get their gear, then they quit”. Because that actually encourages people to play with more characters, and try more things.

If the longevity of your game is centered around bottlenecking gear acquisition, then you’ve designed a shitty game. Longevity should be determined by the content you provide, and the alternate playstyles (read as classes, skills, builds, synergies) that are available.

Hell, D2 is one of the most highly rated, most successful and longest running game in the genre. Remind me what kind of trade it has again… I don’t see people quitting, in droves, because they are able to trade for items “without playing the game”.

3 Likes
283

This is the stupidest position ever. You still have to play the game to acquire the items/currency to trade/buy the items you want. It’s not like a trade, or bazaar, offers free BiS gear to anyone who hits a search button. The better the gear, the more expensive, and more farming that needs to be done to afford it.

Why are people too dense to see that?

Open trade just allows an alternative for people to turn their time into the items they were after, if they have shitty luck. I never once had a Shavronne’s Wrapping drop for me in PoE, but I sure bought a bunch of them. Imagine all the builds I wouldn’t have been able to try if not for trade. Oddly enough, I never once quit the game after buying one, nor did I just log into the game, at the start of a league, and get one for free, without having to first play the game a shitton and earn the currency to buy it.

6 Likes
284

I feel like this whole dialogue and thought process is way too dominated by the specter of PoE. Like it goes beyond a rational desire to avoid that game’s pitfalls and more into an outright phobia.

PoE made/makes a whole sequence of design decisions to get from “trade” to the overbearing market economy it has now. It’s not like it’s some binary thing where the moment you have the ability to exchange items with another player your ecosystem launches right to an exact PoE clone.

The weird mindset is encompassed by OP’s statement that trade reduces getting items to “farming currency”. What currency? That’s a thing in PoE. PoE goes a really long way to provide valuable and interchangeable intermediate resources. This is crucial to having such a huge player economy. It’s your own game - just do the opposite & intentionally exclude potential transaction mediums from trade; the friction added to transactions will already be enough to guarantee that trade never gets anything like as dominant as PoE. And that’s without even engaging with the enormous scope of possibilities for mechanics to directly rate limit trade and balance it against SSF.

5 Likes
285

And that’s just it. MP ARPG games have had trade since the beginning of MP. D2, Grim Dawn, etc etc. It wasn’t until POE and their particular brand of currency items have we run into this opposition to trading as a concept. Trade is integral to the MP experience. Limiting it, as such, only adds a level of frustration, and forces people to play the game, in groups, or lose out on that entire aspect of the game… not to mention the “what if I’m not grouping, I lessen the chance for acquiring my item” mindset.

Of all the types of trade they could implement, I just feel the picked the worst of the worst of the worst (D3-esquq).

4 Likes