This isn’t especially related to the topic, but probably more productive than it has become. Without having run the appropriate statistical test and therefore just relying on my own experience with those tests, I would still bet that with a null hypothesis of the average FP being somewhere around 20 (given that 23 plus FP was ‘1 in a million’), your previous findings would end up with a P-Value of .01 or lower, which would be at least five times greater than the generally accepted requirement for statistical significance.
Your Mistake #!: When you filter out all gear but a single item base, drops are going to be abysmal. Bases aren’t that important, there is a lot of overlap. Look at base stats as another affix and then proceed.
Your Mistake #2: Implying that T22 gear is “mid-tier” and thinking that it should be common. The only way you are going to reliably get full T22 is if you count sealing a T2 affix. You ARE NOT going to find a full set of perfectly matching affixes with a T7 affix on each. Get over it. You need to pull back what you think normal gear is supposed to be. Stop being elitist here.
Basically, STOP IT! Get some help.
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But, as he said, he doesn’t make mistakes, he’s got a stellar track record of being correct!
He doesn’t need help, he needs the game to be changed to accommodate how he wants to play. Simples.
Edit: Ooops, did I press the post button? Silly me.
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Not a mistake. The right base takes a huge amount of pressure from the gear as they are almost always equivalent to an extra T5 affix, this is just not something you can pass on without severely hurting the build (exception to the belt slot).
Mid tier is no common, common is early gear. T22 gear is definitely a mid game because if you look at what the game shows it, it implies the path that should be correct even if the current state of the game doesn’t allows it to. Early gear is the T20s because any rare can be that. Mid tier are the T22 which are the exalted pieces you start finding even before empowered monos and then the late gear is everything after that, T23+ and legendary gear.
If you put them on what should be a realistic expectation, early game gear should be aquired early, that is, by the time you start doing monos you should easily get that. Mid game gear should be the stuff you get after some time doing empowered monos. And the rest, the aspirational gear is what you get after playing a very long time and probably are still not going to have more than a piece or two.
This is not being elitist, being elitist is the people who want to keep crafting as it currently is and as such only have the good gear available for themselves and not allow for the ability for everyone to get it like it happens in some other games.
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Stop complaining then because you are choosing to only allow the most narrow of criteria for drops.
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You are just wrong. Grow up and accept it. The game isn’t balanced based on your incorrect assumptions.
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What? You’re saying you’ve inferred that mid tier gear is T22 because it’s in the “middle” of obtainable gear, and what we’re saying is that any gear above T20 is proveably unnecessary to doing any and all content in the game.
Even if we extend this discussion to the foreseeable future where we have content that requires T22+ gear, finding an exalted and crafting a T22 or T21+2 is not that difficult.
If an exalted drops with an affix I want I will adjust my build around it since it is so easy to adjust affixes in this game. In my personal opinion no exalted should ever be hidden in the loot filter, I treat it just like a unique or set item.
I think you are just being far to strict in what affixes you’re allowing on each piece of gear. Suffixes are mostly universal usually having replacements available on other pieces. Just because your gloves didn’t drop hybrid health and instead has double resistances doesn’t make them useless.
I think you should really sit down and evaluate why you aren’t getting the crafting results you are wanting and whether it’s a limitation of the game’s design or just a misconception about how the crafting system is intended to work.
I think the people on the forums here would be more than happy to look at your loot filter to see where you could make it more general to see more gear drops that are craftable, and there’s been plenty of discussion about how to utilize the plethora of tools available during crafting.
This is the bare minimum criteria. Sure i could go with a base that is worth literally nothing, but then I’d need all my gear to be T25 instead of T20 out of the gate.
I am not wrong, just because the game currently isn’t well balanced it doesn’t means that I am any less right. If the game was properly balanced not only I wouldn’t complain, by now LE would have more players than PoE.
Pretty much, that’s exactly what defines what gear is in any ARPG. Also what is or isn’t necessary to do any content of the game depends on many things like how good the build is and how skilled the player is. Regardless of either of those factors however, gear progression is as important as character progression and if you are not progressing your gear at a reasonable pace, people will grow tired of the game because it feels like the time they put in is not rewarded.
It’s not just finding a piece of gear that has a T7 affix. It’s finding the right base base with the right T7 affix. This is not easy and while it shouldn’t be easy, it also shouldn’t be as hard as it currently is. However, right now the most important part is to even be able to consistently create T20 gear before we start looking into the mid tier gear.
Except I already have those resistance elsewhere and if it’s not giving me what I need there then they are in fact useless. The idea that that sufixes are universal is only true in the very first gear iteration which invariably ends up being a T12 to T14 piece you make and when you lock that piece into place, any replace needs to be a direct replacement.
While I had a bug that prevented me from getting above tier 14 gear, right now I doubt I’ll get above T16 with any degree of expediency and I have no doubt that T20 is all but a pipe dream. It really isn’t a misconception about how the crafting system works. I know how it works and because I know, I know that I won’t get the gear that I should get. Understand that the problem is not that I think the crafting system currently is meant to allow it to happen, I know it’s made with the point of making it extremely hard to archieve it but I’m talking about this issue because it is a huge issue for LE. People are getting stuck in gear progression and leaving the game as a result. How many people exactly? I don’t know, I don’t have the numbers, but I have no doubts that all the casuals who are disapointed with PoE and probably have been disapoint for at least the last 2 years would be here playing LE for many hours if it wasn’t for them feeling the exact same lack of gear progression they feel in PoE. Yes the crafting is better than PoE but ultimately the same problem is still present. Progressing feels like it doesn’t exists. You just get to a certain point and you stagnate. This is why the crafting needs to change. At no point should a player ever feel like his gear growth stagnated unless they are looking for aspirational gear.
Wouldn’t mind showing the lootfilters although they are all deleted as I formated the PC yesterday and thought it was all saved by steam cloud. Seems like it wasn’t. But I did say how I set my loot filters already and there is very little that they can do about it. Let me give you what would be an example piece.
For the glove slot (which is a relatively straightforward slot) I had the following.
Only engraved gloves as the type. Now yes, i could allow ANY gloves, but then I wouldn’t be endurance capped. I could put the endurance elsewhere, but then I’d be losing something that i’d need to put somewhere else. Long story short, there is no place to move it around, it needs to be there. The gear is carefully handpicked because the implicit is always mandatory.
Then I have 4 affixes I want in it. Health regen, poison resistance, intelligence and minion damage. Nothing there can change either. The build main defense comes from vessel of strife so anything that can take health regen must take health regen. Can I swap poison resistance, I can with void but that means the helmet then needs void and once one of the pieces has one of the choices, the other must take the one that is left and once I try to upgrade the piece, I cannot swap it around, it needs to have that resistance that was already there. Then I cannow swap minion damage or intelligence, they are the only 2 prefixes worth having, everything else is worthless for the gloves.
So now that we’ve selected the base and affixes it can have, let’s go over the rest. I make a low bar entry that is 5 tiers of those 4 affixes. It’s unlikely it will render a good piece but you never know if you don’t hav a bunch of high affixes that with insane luck get chaosed into the right one. Never had it happen but hey, it could technically happen.
Then I have another but with 7 tiers of affixes. Just like the previous one but already has a higher number so it is likely to become a better piece.
Then I have one entry which is for engraved gloves with a T7 intelligence, this is the lookout for a potential T22 item.
Then I also have the full RNG filter right at the bottom saying, engraved gloves with between 14 and 16 tiers of any affixes and no affix higher than tier 4. This is for me to try and use chaos on it and hope it all rolls into what I want. Unlikely but it’s there as a hail mary.
Now feel free to suggest a different filter for that specific glove base that covers those specific 4 affixes because as I said, nothing else matters to be there. Of course I already know you can’t setup anything that will magically give me better items because that’s just not possible, what is possible is lowering the bar on the type of affixes I accept and the type of base I accept but that leaves rather large gaps that are then not covered and essencially make not only the build but the item itself worthless.
I feel like we might be going round in circles a bit. I’d like to set a few expectations that might help. T20s are not early gear. We expect to see people often entering empowering monos with T17-T19 gear in several slots on far from optimized builds. Well itemized T22s are very rare and are getting into that min/max range. Hoping to find T27+ gear will only lead to disappointment. Attempting to get appropriately stated T27+ gear will be an exercise in futility.
I fully hear you that you disagree with this and don’t like it. We are always looking to improve the item systems. We are currently pretty happy with the tier progression at the moment and it is unlikely to see significant change pre-1.0. I understand that the prospect of hypothetical T25+ gear existing puts pressure on some expectations for loot drops but we aren’t designing that gear to be the normal “finished character” gear range.
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If you really are not going to serious consider making the game more casual friendly then I fear the release and the patches leading up to it might not enjoy much success, at least no more than what it currently enjoying, possibly less considering a lot of people have been coming from PoE because of how bad this league is but are unlikely to remain in the current state of the game.
Having low tiers of items be the default state seems rather unintuitive and against the idea of a deterministic system but more than that, T20 are going to already be extremely rare. If T22 is approuching min max range and above that is an exercice in futillity, then if I was developing Ipd have to wonder why did I spent time making all of that when nearly no one is ever going to make use of it. It would feel like development time would have been better spent elsewhere from my perspective.
This is not meant as disrespect, it’s my knowledge of gaming industry. Almost no developers would realistically want to spend months developing a system or an addition to a system that sees virtually no use since there was a big investment for nearly no return.
I still urge you to reconsider crafting and reconsider to who you cater the game. There is nothing wrong with having some content for the top players, but the overwelming majority should be directed at the average players since they are the majority of the playerbase.
Thanks for the feedback. I don’t agree with the premise that the game isn’t casual or new player friendly. I also don’t agree that the crafting system contributes to this. I think the crafting system is one of the strengths that helps make the game casual and new player friendly.
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Yeah, and that’s what the majority thinks.
To me personally, the crafting system is in a great spot. Quite friendly for new players, quite forgiving and there’s a stop but not a setback (unless you chaos it, but then the item wasn’t good enough to begin with), dependent on a good crafting base, RNG dependant… (you get both good and bad surprises, which is fine)
Is one of the least punishing systems I’ve seen.
Getting the exact optimal bases for your ideal build in the exact affixes and T20 with little flexibility other than moving a few interchangeable affixes, can be hard, this man just setup himself for failure from the start, because good luck to introduce T6-7 into the build with that rigidity.
If you instead work with the 4-5 top bases for your build in each slot, and you learn to sacrifice and adapt in order to get a better result, the system is quite powerful, and you get results quite early. Heck, even you have idols to cover that weak spots, going full min-max from the start is asking for trouble.
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I’m struggling to see where the complaints are coming from to be honest. Crafting in LE is in a good spot as it is. It is way more accessible than PoE crafting for the casual player and much easier to understand, but also has enough options for min/maxing at end-game to keep the hardcore gamers busy.
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Yup, it’s pretty easy to get decent t20 gear that’s good enough to get into the late normal monos & probably empowered (not quite got there yet on my MA Forge Guard. Though, needless to say, I’m doing this on a second screen while facerolling whatever the pinnacle bosses are in PoE now and steam rolling GR300 in D3 on my phone.
####ing peons.
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gear progression is bad in LE… I can’t even.
Gear progression in LE is easier and better than almost every other ARPG.
The crafting system and exalted items are so seamless and easy to use, I can’t imagine how someone could think that gear progression is slow/difficult. It’s exactly what it should be, progressively more challenging from level 1-100, with it being very easy all the way into early empowered monos, and only getting really challenging once you’re starting to look into LP and 4x perfect affixes on all gear.
As the starter of this thread I have to agree. The crafting is one of the best if not similar to other games. The main thing for this thread was if less RNG in the system as is would be better or worse. Personally I would like less things being so slot machine/ roulette. I like the system and hope that the crafting system gets more tweaks.
We must think a lot differently, T17-19 assuming those affixes are exactly what you want I consider that very good gear. Thats T4 on all affixes…
Getting your 4/4 affixes only slightly better barely helps in some scenarios
What about being able to almost select the exact affixes you want on an item or deterministically upgrade existing affixes seems like a slot machine to you? If anything, the base system is almost completely deterministic, and most of the RNG comes in when you start removing random affixes, using the glyph of chaos, using the LP system, or hunting items that are really good exalted bases.
Probably the FP cost for the upgrade, whether a Sigil of Hope procs or not, in addition to what state the item is in (how acceptable the base & current affixes are for your build) when you start crafting it.
My point is that even with the ability to pick affixes the system still has various levels of RNG. When looking at the whole of the system and the system that interacts with it the overall majority of the system is not deterministic but RNG. Sure you can select a various inputs but you have no real control over the outcomes. Now, I am fine with that but if changes can be made to lessen the slot machine feel of getting a good item by changing various interactions then that is what I advocate for. The game has an example of this and it is Monoliths. You can choose what to go for but the even when you do not get a outcome you are looking for then all you have to do is try again.
This goes back to how monolith of fate is similar to playing Black Jack. If anyone is interested I can give an example for more clarification as I am assuming that everyone knows about all the interactions in crafting and the process of item acquisition.
You already brought that analogy. It’s not necessary to repeat your opinion over and over again. Your arguments don’t change, the counter arguments don’t change. This is going nowhere.
Oh, that’s great. And a good sentence to finish this topic.