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Is Complete/Limited Crafting actually a problem?

After reading the forum I have a come to a single question. Is having no RNG crafting really a problem? It just seem like having it would just be better. Having been playing games like this for over two decades now I feel that some innovation is needed. The reason I even started playing LE was because it was not afraid of the giving more in crafting. Now I understand why having full crafting would cause issues. Yet, I do not see why we can not still have it.

My thought is that LE has the potential to not only be an innovator in this genre but take it further. Even other game only take half measures when it come to non-rng crafting. If not the case why the need to change the crafting to what it is now? I think that with some tweaking and just taking the leap LE can be familiar and new.

By allowing for crafting up to a point to be non-rng the hunt for gear will just be better and the early to mid game will actually mean something. As of right now LE is no different from all the others and is only because of history and lack of mindful change. I see no reason for not having some form of limited non-rng crafting. We do not need complete control since that is just a completely different genre cough “wolcen” cough.

Being able to lets say craft gear to T20 should be fine and it does not require much change to the already live system. For example taking a white to gold should not be a real problem. Plus the rng can come from using the other mechanics. Perfect gear can still be a gamble and it gives more reason to use the other components that are just gathering dust. We still need to hunt for gear drops since we need the prefixes we want and will make more random gear mater.

Right now we just don’t get that. With a simple change crafting meaningful gear just makes it all the more smooth when playing. I say keep the rng for the min-maxing and just let us have our Mid-tier gear. Potential should only be used when either rerolling, changing pre/subfixes and using randomizers. With this simple addon crafting we not only be better but feel better. We all know how shitty it feel to have rng trivialize the hunt. If the game gives us a upgrade let us make the decision to either roll the dies in min-maxing. RNG+ Crafting Potential just doesn’t work. If it did why are we debating if we should even having it.

Adding to an item should cost anything. Taking away should not cost anything. Leave the dies rolls to perfecting an item. Non-rng crafting should set the foundation it does not have to be the end all be all. I’ll the fine tuning to the devs but having some form of non-rng crafting can only be a boon.

If you’ve been reading the forum, then you’ve already read hundreds of answers to that question. Rereading all the same answers again in a thread with your name on it is not going to be the thing that changes your mind. Posting a new thread about not liking RNG in crafting is just narcissism at this point. The topic should be given a moratorium.

That doesn’t make any sense. How would items that you created exactly as you wanted them be more meaningful to you? There was nothing involved in acquiring them - no time, no effort, no skill, no challenge, no uncertainty, no surprise, no learning. You clicked a button, knowing exactly what the outcome is. Where would any sense of satisfaction, accomplishment, attachment, or excitement come from? I don’t think you thought about this at all.

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You wrote a lot of highfalutin words but I think what speaks most loudly is this part here:

You tell us right away that you understand why you can’t have it. Everything that comes after that, in support of having it, is disingenuous. The only truth here is that you want a guarantee of good loot and don’t care if/how that would negatively impact the game. That’s a selfish position, not a compelling one.

It seem you have missed the whole point. So let me break it down for you. The problem is not the crafting it is the lack of meaning innovation in a genre I like to play. Simply put a lack of change. Crafting the items is no different than randomly getting them by your own definition. The act itself is the meaning. Why grind for a item that as such a low change of dropping?

Yet, I digress. The whole point is because lack of change we get the same thing. Plus did you not pay for a product. Can you not review the quality of that product and ask questions. Instead you got on ignored my question, straw maned me and complained about something that will not really changed. I just want to know why devs do this since I keep coming across in the game that like and PAY for. If it wasn’t an issue why is this a thing Feedback on runes of refinement and shaping - #7 by RawSuicide.

You cannot accuse me of missing a point you never tried to make to begin with. What you are doing here has a term, and that term is Motte and Bailey.

You wrote a post about how you want there to be crafting without RNG. You did not write a post about innovation. The only reason you are talking about much you allegedly value innovation now is because that’s easier to defend than “I don’t like RNG in crafting”. If what you cared about was actually “innovation”, your post would have had more than a single sentence in six paragraphs.

Can you not ask your question in any of the dozens of threads already talking about RNG in crafting? It’s not a new question. Why did it need a new thread? The answer is narcissism.

But you already know why they do it. You said so yourself - “Now I understand why having full crafting would cause issues.” Those were your words. Right before that, you said you had read the forum about the topic. That means you have read the many, many threads with hundreds of replies, including many from the dev team. You already have every answer is to what you asked. What you say you want and what you actually want are not the same.

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How can you tell me what I actually want or the point I am trying to make. What I want to know is why do devs take half measures in a system that would benefit more if they went all the way. Using crafting as example since that is what is used in most forums of discussion. What I have read in other forum posts is about the systems they put in that is rng based and how those systems cause discomfort.

My point here is why we have it but is that really why we continue to have when some innovation to the system might give those that care enough to post something that they are looking for. RNG as it stands is the issue with crafting. The devs know this that’s why they change the system. I ask a question and gave an example. Just cause the example is similar to other post was not what I am going for.

I ask again, is have some form of innovation that involves some form of non-rng really a problem and if it is why is it a problem when the new system is moving towards it.

I am confused.
Isn’t this the same point as I Don’t See Why Forging Potential Exists ?

How deterministic should the crafting system be is a good discussion to have.
Personally, I voiced my discontent in how some of the components of the system are currently implemented, but that does not necessarily mean that I would want the entire system to be torn apart.

This, unfortunately. That said, people will always want to have their voice heard, even if the say things that have been said before & that’s ok.

Crafting is supposed to be used to tweak an item, not make it from scratch.

Absolutely, but not everyone will agree with you. And that’s ok too.

I was going to say something similar to what Bronco said last night, but there’s not much point 'cause that’s been said before as well…

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Because I’m telling you what you already told me.

You wrote six paragraphs complaining about RNG in crafting and one sentence about “innovation”. You didn’t talk about “innovation” in any meaningful way until I disagreed with your complaints about RNG in crafting. That is not how someone behaves when what they want to talk about is “innovation”. It’s how someone behaves when they want to talk about RNG in crafting.

You have no interest in “innovation”. You’re just putting makeup (“iNnOvAtiOn”) on a pig (“I want crafting to be an item editor”) because you think nobody will notice it’s still a pig.

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That’s really no different than people wanting to put “challenging and interesting” makeup on the current lottery-ticket crafting/loot system pig, and think that somehow validates that position. Something about goose and ganders, and what’s good for them…

I’m actually confused what innovative would actually entail… Titan Quest/Grim Dawn’s class system? Sacred’s open-world, plus skill/stat system? People claimed Dungeon Siege 1 and 2 were innovative, for a variety of reasons. Hell, didn’t we even used to think using an actual 3d world would be innovative, but that was scrapped because of performance issues, so everything remains isometric top-down. Seems like most things considered ‘innovative’ end up being scrapped, and left behind, while we press forward with the same games, just using different graphics and skill names.

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Maybe, but I can only react to your version of that argument, and to that I’d say that you’re being hyperbole. If we’re talking about POE, yeah, spot on. But we’ve got enough control - more, and more broadly, than other crafting systems I’ve experienced - in LE’s crafting that it’s not really accurate to call it “a lottery ticket system”. To me, “lottery ticket system” sounds something more like only being able to reroll the entire item over and over and over.

Well, in this specific case, it’s just being used as a synonym for “Give me an item editor”. But in the more general sense, I agree, I don’t really know what it would entail either. Probably why I’m an engineer and not a designer :sweat_smile:

Both POE and LE are very much gambling in my opinion, the main difference is what kind of gambling they are.

POE is more similar to a slot-machine. When crafting, you often end up repeating the same steps over and over again, and the chances of getting what you actually want are so miniscule that you sometimes have to try hundreds of times to get a single success.
And in doing so you consume an enormous amount of currency basically for every step of the way.

While, in LE, you get to chose what modifiers you get on your item. However, the success of the crafting is not determined by what modifiers you put on, it entirely depends on weather or not the item bricks before the end of the process.
You have very little control over the FP and it is random enough that you cannot predict if it will succeed. It is not a stretch to say that each base that you try crafting on is essentially a lottery ticket that you are playing in the hope of a lucky success.

As a side-note:

Are we talking about POE here? because crafting in POE has not been like this in years (If you ignore the latest patch - the latest round of nerfs has made this statement much more true ).

My original example was adding in a bit of both since having complete crafting trivializes picking up gear. lYet, the current and older iterations of crafting still leave players wanting. Now I don’t know where the bar/line is but I just know that something more could be done that doesn’t uproot what we already have.

You have an insane amount of control of the FP that you use while crafting.

Crafts on earlier tiers skew lower, you can hold off on doing the T5 craft to hope to critically succeed it up, you can use despair glyphs instead of runes of removal, exalted and high tier rares drop with much higher base FP.

There are so many helping systems rewarding people who understand and use the crafting system that by endgame a completed craft can have upwards of 30+ FP remaining.

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The randomness is there to stop everyone from getting easy t20s and thus so that we actually have a reason to pick up loot. Without the looting one of the factors of the core loop is lost.

And if it isn’t random but instead has heavy affix shard costs for later gear, then it would become annoying to even get middle tier gear because of the time requirement.

As it stands you can get 2 or so t5 affixes per gear slot without much grinding.

Uhh…

Yes? lol.

You seem to have misunderstood.
When I said that poe crafting has not been like this in years I was referring to the part about rerolling the entire item over and over, not the lottery ticket thing.

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I only pick up loot with affixes I want to get off of them, or the rare chance I get a good base with 2 or 3 T3+ runes that are useful for me. I’d wager over 99.5% of loot drops in this game are either filtered out, or don’t get picked up at all. This would be an interesting statistic to see.

The entire thing is just one big RNG simulator after another, with FP being marginally better than the old fracture system, and still an RNG simulator with minimal control on how much FP is consumed in your craft. I’ve had FP35+ exalteds brick after 2 or 3 crafts, and FP5 items get 5+ crafts out of that last tiny bit. It’s a crap-shoot, and doesn’t feel good at all. I’m never excited about crafting, but always more frustrated with having spent my ultra rare +skill/class runes and bricking at T2/3 on the other 3 slots, along with getting crappy roll ranges to boot.

Yep, I did misunderstand.

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That’s why I figure that by just adding more non-rng mechanics to the crafting it would help in some way. Yet, everyone thinks it just to have some arbitrary gripe but we all feel that something could be done. What ever innovation would be I just dont know what else it could look be.

I ask again, is have some form of innovation that involves some form of non-rng really a problem and if it is why is it a problem when the new system is moving towards it..
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