Interesting decline of players

[Tleilaxa]

The endgame is boring, very boring. There is a lot of work to be done on this game.

[Llama8]

@Grizzly2612

the video below is more like what i have been talking about and what the crafting system should have been from the start

Yeah, the coming rework is what I was thinking of when I said that.

@Tleilaxa

The endgame is boring, very boring. There is a lot of work to be done on this game

Yeah, almost like it’s not at the same level as games that have had well over a decade of development work to add endgame & balance & stuff (I do agree with you BTW).

[GiantOctopodes]

@FredJesus

well… the game only has 2 endgames Arena/dungeon & Rift. See, for 1.0 this isn’t necessarily bad, PoE had less than that, but if that’s all you expect from this game (and that’s what it seems like) then it’s quite worrying because the game is already in a dead game state, even PoE having one of its worst seasons and over 10 years its retention is greater than that of LE… I still think that LE’s core is very good, and I hope for the best, but what’s true is true, you can’t hide it

Except, it’s not true. Last Epoch peaked at 264k players (Feb 25) then 3 weeks later (Mar 17th) they had 119k players, for a retention through 3 weeks of 44%. POE had a peak of 189k players (Mar 29) then 3 weeks later (Apr 19th) they had 61k players, for a retention through 3 weeks of 32%.

Furthermore, you say the game is in a “dead game state” but that’s literally impossible for this game as it’s not reliant on matchmaking and isn’t live service. A “dead game” is one where the game is functionally or practically speaking unplayable due to inadequate playerbase, leading to taking 30+ minutes to find a match, or where it’s been literally broken by server shutdowns. That can’t happen with Last Epoch because it has true always offline mode. I’ve been focusing on making Legacy Offline characters since the start since they will always be with me even 10 years from now guaranteed. So it’ll never be a dead game, it’s just a matter of how much sales allow them to continue development. Given that they just got a massive cash infusion, I think that’s safe through the next year at least.

Speaking of, I find it hilarious that folks say “you can only make 1 first impression” and talk about how it needs this or that, endgame or crafting, and compare it to D2; meanwhile D2 launched with literally 0 endgame or crafting of any kind. Runewords didn’t come along until Lord of Destruction, which was released a full year after launch, and which you had to pay for. Even then, the only endgame was target farming bosses you encountered during the campaign, and killing the final boss over and over again for mediocre XP trying to get to level 100 just because you could.

This game certainly could improve. But the idea that people are comparing its launch state to POE’s current state (POE’s launch state was atrocious by the way) or D2’s final state (D2’s launch state was terrible by the way) is just laughable. And to pretend that somehow it’s “too late” for the game to be improved when both of those games show otherwise, or that a game with full offline can ever be a “dead game”? How disingenuous.

[DirePenguin]

D3…where does everyone get LE from? The quote I replied to was talking about D3.

@DJSamhein

you have another D3 where players join for a week, get everything they need and then leave.

[Grizzly2612]

@Llama8

almost like it’s not at the same level as games that have had well over a decade of development work to add endgame & balance & stuff

honestly trying to say they are not at the same level because other games have had twice as long to develop, is actually a poor excuse when there is so many stats that they focussed on, instead of “endgame & balance & stuff”.

+/- 38 defensive stats, +/- 50 positive ailments, +/- 68 negative ailments
these could have been reduced by at least 50% and then built in after other things were balanced.

majority of mechanics/ailments require ‘on hit’, but the arrows from skills go straight through the enemy (no dodge), so enemies dont even need dodge to avoid some skills at times.

whats the point in having fancy stats when your skills cant even use them properly.
like i said in a previous comment, its better to have 4 perfectly working classes than 15 half broken masteries.

the game was/is a hobby, thats the only problem with the length of development, you can see it.
people just sitting back and casually playing a game with their friends and implementing random ideas that they talk about, balance doesnt matter, endgame doesnt matter and bugs dont matter because it is a hobby, but then you sell it to the public, now those things do matter but there is so many all at once because they were not addressed sooner.

in other words, it basically has nothing to do with half the development time, but it has everything to do with initial development plan, which was, a hobby for friends to do together.

[Sarkman]

@DJSamhein

All of D2’s endgame was farming meph/chaos/pink/whatever, hoping you got uniques to drop.

Agree on how it used to be. Not so much with D2R anymore. With terror zones, boss farming is obsolete since in TZs, nearly every mob can drop anything, even white mobs. Gives my friends an I an actual incentive to clear the zones over porting to boss and reloading over and over. Although, I still do boss runs for the feels sometimes. It’s still a valid strategy, just not the best anymore.

@DJSamhein

Which is why D2 players enjoy LE, once again. Because they can simply farm monos hoping for that good drop. The gameplay loop is similar and the difficulty in getting the BiS gear is similar.

Not sure how to word this, but I’ll try. I would agree that the loop is similar, but BiS gear is not. I got the Arm of King Leoric last night in D2R, one of the BiS items for summon necros, and it’s perfect out of the box. I don’t have to socket it, or hope for good stats, or that it’s LP3-4, it’s just good to go. In LE I would see if it’s LP or not, how many LP, wait for an exotic to compliment it, do Julra, then possibly or quite possibly brick it when the affixes I want don’t transfer. Then I’d have to find it again to repeat that process? In the wise words of a friend of mine, “eff that noise.”

I think the “idea” of the LP system is solid. Making Uniques even better sounds like a great idea. There’s just too much RNG and too many moving parts right now for me to ever enjoy it. There’s not enough dopamine in the world to overcome the crash of bricking your one good LP unique in that time sucking Julra dungeon, knowing you now have to do it all over again.

[DJSamhein]

@Sarkman

one of the BiS items for summon necros

Some builds will have a unique on one of the 4 slots, but most builds will use a runeword. In fact, you will usually use a runeword or two on swap as well. Not to mention the ones for the merc.
And for those, you have to farm, either get the runes to drop or some other drop that you can trade for them, apply the runeword, hope for good rolls. If you don’t have a good roll, you have to use an hel rune to clear it and farm it all over again, until the RNG gives you a good roll.
For the vast majority of D2 builds, even more so in D2R, since they introduced new build-enabling runewords, the endgame revolves around getting your runewords min-maxed.
This is not to mention that for almost every single build, the absolute BiS is 2/20s which have to be crafted over hundreds or even thousands of attempts.

This is similar to LE. You can get uniques with 0LP and your build will work fine. For min-max, you have to farm the uniques for increased LP, farm exalts for slam, hope for a good roll, etc.
In fact, I’d say that overall, min-maxing your build in LE is easier than in D2. Especially because 4LP removes all the RNG out of it.

@Sarkman

There’s not enough dopamine in the world to overcome the crash of bricking your one good LP unique

This is the most common misconception I see regarding this. When you don’t get the affix you want, you didn’t brick the unique. At worst, it’s the exact same as a 0LP, although in the vast majority it will be slightly better, at least. It might not be an improvement on the one you’re using, but other builds can still use it and it will be better than a 0LP one.

Bricking an item is something that happens in PoE, where corrupting can turn the unique into a random rare or even add an affix that is bad for your build, since it can roll all possible affixes.
In LE, you have control over which 4 affixes can land, so you can never brick the unique, unless you really really want to. In which case, kudos?

[Grizzly2612]

@GiantOctopodes

I find it hilarious that folks say “you can only make 1 first impression”

please share, how do you make 2 first impressions?

@GiantOctopodes

D2 launched with literally 0 endgame or crafting of any kind.

what year was that? what kind of hardware did you need to play or develop such a game? how many people had such hardware?
comparing LE’s launch with D2 is silly and pointless, because even the grass in LE has better graphics, let alone anything else.

besides, D1 and D2 didnt really even have competition, a lot of people enjoyed it because there wasnt anything better, and most people that are still enjoying it comes from the time they spent playing it (you cant teach an old dog new tricks).

nowadays more people have more powerful hardware to both play and develop 10x better games than D2 was, so comparing it becomes silly.

@GiantOctopodes

it’s “too late”

for a first impression.
now they can only try get people to come back or stay.

@GiantOctopodes

both of those games show

that there is interest in the genre, but people dont stick around for long, because of certain things, like skills/crafting/drop systems or imbalance/bugs/lag being bad.

[GiraffaGonfiabile]

@DJSamhein

This is the most common misconception I see regarding this. When you don’t get the affix you want, you didn’t brick the unique. At worst, it’s the exact same as a 0LP, although in the vast majority it will be slightly better, at least. It might not be an improvement on the one you’re using, but other builds can still use it and it will be better than a 0LP one.

It does not matter that it is technically an upgrade over a 0 LP version of the same item, most of the times, the item you are crafting is not going to replace a 0 LP version of the same unique anyway.
The point is that when you are playing a failed slam feels like a brick, and not amount of people saying “uhm ackshually, it is an upgrade” is going change that.

Besides, people use the term bricking for a whole range of failed outcomes.
personally, the way I use it is to describe a failure state that is unrecoverable without starting from scratch, and a failed LP slam absolutely qualifies for this description.

[Llama8]

@Grizzly2612

@GiantOctopodes

it’s “too late”

for a first impression.
now they can only try get people to come back or stay.

Yeah. It worked for No Man’s Sky & D3, not so much for Wolcen.

[DJSamhein]

@GiraffaGonfiabile

It does not matter that it is technically an upgrade over a 0 LP version of the same item, most of the times, the item you are crafting is not going to replace a 0 LP version of the same unique anyway.

It just won’t replace it if you want to have a hard mode. Item vs Item+slightly useful affix is a no-brainer. It’s always better to use the second one.

[Sarkman]

@DJSamhein

This is similar to LE. You can get uniques with 0LP and your build will work fine. For min-max, you have to farm the uniques for increased LP, farm exalts for slam, hope for a good roll, etc.

That’s a good point, but for some reason I can’t place my finger on, I don’t like how it’s implemented. It feels off in LE, or at the very least, it affects me more in a negative way than the system D2R uses.

I also understand the point on runewords and weapon swaps, but I generally don’t do that. I have a 32% fcr Spirit Monarch, it’s never getting rerolled. I don’t need the absolute BiS to crush in D2R. In the near 20 years off an on, I’ve never even seen a Ber rune ever, so I have to accept that there’s just a level of gear/power I’ll never see. When people say, you need an Infinity, or a CtA, or Hoto, I just put it out of my mind that that’s ever going to be in the realm of possibility for me.

I’ve been thinking about my LE experience, and there’s just a disconnect. On the one end, I got all my gear in a flash using MG, and on the other end, the LP3+ stuff is just going to be impossible with slams and RNG. Just doesn’t agree with me is all. I still like the game and keep up with updates and news.

[DJSamhein]

@Sarkman

I don’t need the absolute BiS to crush in D2R. In the near 20 years off an on, I’ve never even seen a Ber rune ever, so I have to accept that there’s just a level of gear/power I’ll never see.

@Sarkman

on the other end, the LP3+ stuff is just going to be impossible with slams and RNG.

You don’t need absolute BiS on LE to crush. You just need it to push the most corruption possible. Just like you say your won’t ever get Inifinity or CtA in D2R, you just have to adjust that you won’t ever get 3-4LP rare uniques. They’re on equivalent levels.

I’m not saying that what you feel is invalid. Fun is a very relative thing and if one feels fun for you and the other doesn’t, then that’s fine. But they’re similar systems in terms of being hard to get.

[Eimernase]

@DJSamhein

This is not to mention that for almost every single build, the absolute BiS is 2/20s which have to be crafted over hundreds or even thousands of attempts.

Neighter is a 2/20s BiS nor realy important.
Any class add things like faster cast or attack speed only to a certain point to get a wanting breakpoint (those are animation based).
So caster-builds like pala/necro going not higher as 125fc, sorcs going mainly 105/117fc (some build can go to 200), all other classes dont use faster cast mainly, except some niche builds.

those 125fc can easily get without any crafted amulet, its just not needed for the breakpoint.
Hoto Weapon(40), Spirit Shield(35), Arach belt (20), Gloves(20) and at last a rare ring with 10% fc.
Mission completed, no big deal.
There are also a lot other options to get this with other weapons, helmets, sockets etc.

+2 amulet is still nice to have, in some cases a magic (blue) +3 amulet is better (as example javazon, enchant-sorc) and some other builds dont care if +2 or not (multi/ga-bowama as example).
If u are not a caster class, you will mainly look for more important stats like attack speed, resistances, leech etc. And attack speed cant getting at a crafted amulet, so if you need that stat, there are only 2 unique amulet which have it. So a 2/20s is mainly never BiS, just for very few builds.

[DJSamhein]

@Eimernase

There are also a lot other options to get this with other weapons, helmets, sockets etc.

YEs, but we’re talking about absolute min-max. This means that if you get a 2/20 (or, in rare cases, +3 like you mentioned), you can get other affixes on the ring/whatever.
You don’t need a 2/20. It’s just the absolute BiS you can chase. Like you don’t need 4LP. It’s just the absolute BiS you can chase.

[Sarkman]

@DJSamhein

You don’t need absolute BiS on LE to crush. You just need it to push the most corruption possible. Just like you say your won’t ever get Inifinity or CtA in D2R, you just have to adjust that you won’t ever get 3-4LP rare uniques. They’re on equivalent levels.

Appreciate the feedback.

The difference I see is that D2 stops at P8 in terms of difficulty, which I never play anyway. I generally do P1 Online, or with a couple friends. LE never stops progressing though… corruption always increases and there appears to be no end. The end is when you’re a red stain on the floor. When is my character “good” in LE?

Agree on fun being relative, and to me when my necro’s doing 300 corruption, and the wraithlord build is pushing 1-2k corruption calling everyone scrubs, it just makes me want to throw my hands up and go “yeah I’m done.”

[Grizzly2612]

@Sarkman

When is my character “good” in LE?

when every slot has perfect roll LP4
until then, its as good as you feel, or roughly 320 corruption, anything past that is just gravy.

LP4 items are the only endgame, everything until then, is just the journey to LP4.

[Sarkman]

@Eimernase

those 125fc can easily get without any crafted amulet, its just not needed for the breakpoint.
Hoto Weapon(40), Spirit Shield(35), Arach belt (20), Gloves(20) and at last a rare ring with 10% fc.
Mission completed, no big deal.
There are also a lot other options to get this with other weapons, helmets, sockets etc.

This is what I mean. I just got an Eschuta’s Temper last night, never seen one before. +3 skill, 20% lightning, 18% fire and I almost came out of my chair in excitement. If that had dropped in LE, even with LP3, I wouldn’t have had the same rush. Because I know that’s just the first step. I still need a proper Exalt, do Julra, and pray the bloody affix I want actually comes over, THEN I can get excited, and that’s just too many unknowns for me.

And if you like that, fine, no worries, it’s just too much for me is all.

[Grizzly2612]

@Grizzly2612

320 corruption

i only gave this specific number because thats the number for the highest CoF prophecy rewards.

if you are running MG, you can chill on 0 corruption if you want.

the idea is, play with builds and push them as far as you want or can, because there is no limit, so there will never be a case of you being limited by hard cap on an activity (like D3 limiting GR to 150 when people can clearly go beyond that).
you will only be limited by your items and skills (including your skills at playing the game).

[DPC23]

@DJSamhein

D3 is for casuals

just for curiosity, have you finished Greater Rift 150 solo? if not why? is for casuals…
D3 has the best end-game from all aRPGs.