These will work as well
1 Like
Putting stun on npc auto attack was probably the worst design choice i have seen in the last ~30 years of gaming. I have 11 seconds of stun immunity after teleport, and around 2700 avoid. I have ward. The concept is horrible. It needs an unconditional DELETE.
Hard to take you seriously with how hyperbolic you’re being.
5 Likes
No, those would work a lot better than a comparable tier of stun avoidance suffix.
Then why do you ever get stunned?
You’re definitely doing it wrong then. Maybe if you invested in HP you’d not die, or get stunned, from a wet fart?
5 Likes
Good point.
I hate the level of hyperbole in this post but I actually agree that Stun is a bad mechanic (along with every other form of character control loss) and it should be removed from the game.
1 Like
It’s classic CC
You as the player have the ability and the enemies have the same. There’s ways to alleviate the issue and work around it so it becomes no problem anymore. It’s a lot more dangerous for melee range then ranged character… but even then it barely poses a problem unless you overextend too far into high corruption levels.
1 Like
Factual stats is not an exaggeration
I have no issue with cc. I have an issue with cc being attached to autoattack/cast.
No, I disagree, its classic in perhaps this genre which is notoriously ancient and has tons of design problems.
The stun shit is by far one of the most cringe and antiquated mechanics.
Its just a binary stat check that adds nothing to the game other then “make sure you get stats to stop this”
its annoying as hell because monsters/players are not created equal.
Take a game like GW1, CC makes total sense, because the monsters and the players are mostly equal, at very late game monsters exceed level 20, but otherwise are still limited to the same level scaling health and have cooldowns just like the player. the pve is more like less skill based pvp.
In the arpg genre monsters and players have vastly different stat scales and thus using the same rules for both makes no sense imo.
A perfect example of this, is in PoE monsters actually have many attacks hard coded to not stun, because if they did, you would just auto lose unless you are stun immune. Tuls channeling ice barrage can not stun. because it does enough damage per tick to stun you, but the idea is you dont get hit by it for more then a tick or two, since you should be actively dodging it, it hurts alot as a boss attack, but generally you can afford to get tapped by it here or there and not die. if it could stun, it would just be a bullet hell where if you make a single mistake you get stunned into death. The devs realize they cant have the monsters stun in these situations, it would be unfair to the player.
Stuns just feel so nonsense and binary I really dont think they should be in the game. I dont think it will ever change, but god the mechanic is so frustrating.
1 Like
Since many enemies only have a singular attack it would mean removal of the mechanic by itself.
So nah, it has its place and mandates to not make extremely low life builds. Also it’s an indicator if the content you run is too much for your build right away or not… beyond simply falling down on the ground dead.
Yes, just like… resistances… just like… armor… just like…
It’s one of the things you need to build around.
They don’t. Scaling for mobs and players is different. Also it’s there to affect your minions too at half strength to not make completely glass-cannon minions… even if the design currently fails a bit in providing that properly.
Stun is one of the most dangerous mechanics in PoE, characters do a lot to become stun immune in the game since it’s one of the most common reasons to die, and unlike LE you can become stunlocked there.
The exception is made for some mechanics, but it’s not the norm to exist. Like Tul’s which is extremely dangerous even without the stun to it.
There are exactly zero factual stats in these statements and they are pure hyperbole.
I’m aware. CC on players has always been bad design that does not belong in any PVE game, IMO.
Thats not the way it functionally works. For example, one of the current problems is there are monoliths that have “protect this while x”. The spawns are not properly done. They are instantiated on click of that object instead of at the creation of the instance and pooled after. In game design its standard practice to load all the instantiation at the creation of the instance / scene and then to use a search of move npc/disable or enable.
because of this setup you get “lag spikes” that happen on click. That resorts in multiple attacks at one, which means an almost promised stun while in a period of lag. Even if you are not talking about the spawn issue, you still get the same. More mobs = more chances of stun. Its not a good mechanic… No, its a horrible one.
Im gona be forward and call out my intuition on this and say that this statement is largely due to the withheld “we dont wanna make it casual” Approach. That is intellectual dishonesty (for starters).
Second and more importantly… You dont need stun mechanics to mandate low like builds, or even validate them more. You can simply do things like “ward only blocks 90% (or some other value) of damage”. That would force people to stack life as well.
Lastly on this point, Many people complain about it. If the cry of EHG is to make a game that people like it can start by removing a meaningless, horrible mechanic that many people complain about.
Resist, Armor and the life do not provide extremely negative conditions of gameplay. There is a different between “i need to build this” and “this is out of my control, im frustrated and gona quit”.
A good designer understands that design is not just mechanical operation, but also includes the intellectual process attached to the game, and the emotional response that comes out of it. This has extremely negative emotional response and minimal intellectual interaction. In other words it has 1/3 of the conditions (at best) for good design, and that is “bad design”.
I tend to dispise stun in LE because scaling stun resist seems to not be effective. It seems almost a meme, i can run 1000 stun avoidance, and still be stunned, because the way that swarms work anything short of 100% stun resist is irrelevent for if i get swarmed the numbers suggest i will get stunned and then mauled to death.
A simple solution to this is to add constelations to LE like in grimdawn. These would let you add flat % to various stats and maybe auras. Here is some i would like to see
-100% stun avoidance for 2s after a malee attack [aura] costs 1%hp per second
-convert [dot] to haste for 1s, max stack 10, for [rMB] cooldown of 1s
-
100% resist to [pick 1 [poison, bleed, frost chill, shock etc] for 1s for parry/deflect/dodge
-
gain stacks of evasion [+10% dodge max stacks 10] for blocking/parry
-
at cost of 25% max hp, add 150ms i-frame to all traversal skills
See these are too, but they also dont remove the mechanic. Resistances are not “build them or lose” Atleast in this game. Nor is armor. You can simply choose to ignore armor. And heck, armor has a non linear progression! so getting a little armor is pretty good! its not “have this or lose”
Getting stunned is pretty much instantly losing. Thats why its different.
Resistances in this game are really well designed, they are a good defensive layer that does not require full investment. Having 0 will get you killed, but having only 40% wont be the end of the world if you have other really strong defenses lined up.
I also think we cant ignore the game feel problems presented by stun. its is probably one of the most gross feeling mechanics. getting stunned literally never feels good. When I die to a slam or a beam or some other “dont stand in big circle” I go “wow I deserved that, I need to play better”
when a enemy spawns on you ala snake man, you hear ting and you cant do anything and simply fall over, the gameplay is “oh sorry you simply didnt build the correct do nothing stat for this one niche mechanic haha”
like imagine we made a stat on gear called “purity” if your purity is lower then corruption, you take the difference in % as extra damage. The stat does nothing other then punishing you for not having it. Do you think this is a good stat? it makes gearing harder as now you must balance for this stat.
But in reality its just an extremely boring way to attempt to punish how players build. Trust me, stun does not need to exist to punish low health/low defense builds, they will get one shot to plenty of things without stun. Heck even on like 3-4k hp builds with decentish armor, if you fuck up you can die without getting stunned.
I legit think they could remove stun from the game and the things that kill people would still kill people.
1 Like
No but it’s so much better now that you can get health AND stun avoidance on two whole items, right?
Right?
It’s not just boring, IMO. It’s uncreative almost to the point of being lazy. Think of a better way to threaten me than full on stopping me from being able to do anything.
Just yesterday, I read a thread from someone who thought resistances are horrible and should be removed from the game. Where does it end?
First off, good and bad are subjective.
Dark Souls was made successful by fostering frustration. It makes the victory just the sweeter.
As for an intellectual challenge - stun is part of the puzzle to create your character. A puzzle needs a few pieces to be interesting. In a stat-based RPG game, some intellectual challenges can be as simple as making sure your character gets all the stats you want or need.
As a mechanic, stun or other CCs are one of the big threats in the game. CC can endanger you when otherwise only one-shots will get you. Different methods of sustainability prevent that monsters grind you down slowly by smallish hits.
Thats the best part, building stun avoidance in my honest opinion is a joke and a meme.
Take for example, a player with 2k health, who takes a 500 damage hit, as per the formula, their chance to be stunned is.
(2 x 500 x 1/2250) - 0.1 = 0.34, or if my math is correct 34% chance to be stunned by that hit.
if we add a staggering 2250 stun avoidance we get
(2 x 500 x 1/4500 - 0.1) = 0.12 or 12% to get stunned.
I am still getting stunned 1/10th of the time. if we wanna talk about how shit dodge is, stun avoidance is some dooky trash.
its simply always better to invest in defenses/ward/health to create a big pool to reduce the stun chance at a baseline, the stun avoidance stat is simply “fake” health that does nothing but prevent stuns.
Now, I can understand why stuns exist, I just think they are done extremely poorly and shouldnt be some shotgun rng mechanic and instead be moves which stun you if you get hit, and you should attempt to not get hit by them as to not take follow up hits. if you eat a telegraphed stun thats on you.
Stuns problem lies in its inherent randomness and inability to account for it.
1 Like
Yes, but the solution for that is to change said mechanic to frontload those entities rather then changing a in-game mechanic to make it suddenly work.
Otherwise we go towards the ‘logout macro’ issue which PoE has, making a mechanic around a situation which they couldn’t get under control, hence reducing the need to get said situation further under control. Because now you got a convenient excuse that you have a mechanic in place which circumvents the issue.
This is something which is also never allowed to happen as it provides a dangerous precedence and causes a game to stagnate.
It’s not without reason that GGG only now - after LE has been released - starts to mass implement QoL features which should’ve been available since… well… the conception of the mechanics getting ‘QoL’ changes.
Let them make a poll then. It would be indicative of the actual numbers and not a loud minority in a forum.
It’s why it’s a suggestion forum. They look at it, then decide if it’s even a viable point, then put it on a priority list of they deem it viable and if it’s very high priority they either change something or make a poll if it goes against their usual methodology.
EHG has proven that capability already to adhere to the majority voice of the players. They shouldn’t always do it but in some situations they should.
So if it goes up then you have your answer for that.
True, they avoid those negative conditions. The most severe one being ‘death’ and hence loss of reward or time.
Stun is a in-built mechanic with the same premise, just shorter-term. If you don’t handle it you are threatened with the death of your character and hence loss of reward or time.
Exactly! Stun also is not a ‘take care of it or loose situation’. Actually quite the contrary. You get stunned if you get a large hit comparatively to your life pool.
What’s the solution? Damage mitigation or increase of said life pool.
There’s a lot of options to reduce or in very rare cases even avoid stuns.
The system shouldn’t be removed… it needs some work definitely in the current state, won’t deny that. But outright removal?
That’s quite a tall ask to make!
You got to have a very very severe reason to make that happen.
Not just in your oppinion, it’s a objectively bad stat on any item. The amount of upsides it has is far outstripped by the negatives of not choosing another affix in the first place, especially ones which take care of stuns more then actual stun avoidance which should be specialized for exactly that.
I think for me, I ask the question of why rework a system that simply exists to frustrate the player?
Resistances, Armor, Health are the inverse to damage, you build them to not die. I dont think anyone is ever tackling the health vs more damage equation going “what does this do to stun”
Stuns is just some rng dice mechanic that exists because some old guy 30 years ago was like “yeah if you get hit you have a chance to get stunned!” it probably has roots in countering spell casters ala Dungeons and Dragons. You need to make concentration checks to cast when getting hit in combat, and mobs get attacks of opportunity on you.
This is because casting is inherently more powerful then traditional physical arms, so needs restrictions.
Thats literally all it is imo, I really dont think its some deep constructed mechanic anyone has actively thought about in a good while.
Like I said, I think the other games in the genre, mostly PoE where you can completely become immune to stun fairly easily it just showcases how little stun actually matters at stopping glass cannons or forcing balanced builds. the bad squishy builds will die regardless of being stunned.
They just wont be as pissed off about constantly getting a jarring rng mechanic happening. and if they are good enough and just dont get hit by ranged abilities, they wont die as often.
like its one of the areas many of these games can and should modernize.
like heck, I feel like once you are passed initial gearing stun isnt even a problem, thats even more reason for it to not exist. its just an annoying early game system that frustrates players and makes them not want to progress because they are having their agency of movement removed.
1 Like