Getting to lvl 100 is way to fast

[Arundel]

@Zarono

his isn’t a JRPG like final fantasy, the “journey” you go on from 1 to 100 is meaningless after the story ends (which presumably, the story will eventually actually end at or near level 100, it is currently unfinished) the game as it is now could have you finish the story around level 50-55 (depending on how easily distracted you are by side objectives) and then immediately be boosted to level 100. most of the end game doesn’t even happen until you are 100.
i’m sorry you feel that way, but like, this is every ARPG that exists.

He responds:

@Tacocat

That isnt even remotely true. Have you never played diablo 2 or path of exile? Reaching the max lvl this fast isnt common at all.

in response to you saying the journey from 1-100 is meaningless after the story ends and that “every ARPG that exists” is this way (I can’t think of a single one outside of d3 btw). He referenced perfect examples of two of the most widely praised ARPGS of all time, a perfectly legitimate response to prove you wrong.

You respond

@Zarono

Have YOU played diablo 3? the very sequel to your own example, where if you don’t hit level cap within 15 minutes of making a character you’re doing it wrong and wasting your time.

Literally using the only example of an ARPG in existence where your original point is true to serve your argument.

This game may not be D2 or PoE, but it could be a considered spiritual successor, or at least that’s the goal. I know myself and most of the community would say that isn’t true for D3 nor should it be.

[Zaodon]

@Arundel

Hitting level cap should be reserved for ultra-dedicated players, not casuals.

People who believe that should be ejected from the game, or at the very least, ignored and their opinions mocked. Its elitist.

[Zarono]

@Jerle

D3 is considered a disgrace among hardcore ARPG fans for the most part.

oh i agree, it’s also a disgrace among the people who play it for the most part, and yet people still come back every season and dump hundreds of hours into pushing the leaderboard, so it’s doing something right.
also, as a game developer, you would alienate a large percentage of your audience if you only catered to the “hardcore players”, which is what this post is asking for.

[Jerle]

Good luck. It’s the devs philosophy.

[Zaodon]

No, it isn’t. There is a difference between “Its work to reach cap” and “only no-life elite streamer kids can hit level cap.”

[Jerle]

Try asking Mike on his stream and see if I’m wrong.

[Arundel]

You’re free to dump 30 minutes a weekend into D3 on switch towards hitting level cap in your bath robe and slippies, I’ll continue to play games built in the spirit of the best ARPGS of all time like D2 and PoE.

Wanting long term goals isn’t elitist or toxic.
Wanting people to be banned and mocked for opinions is. (The second layer of irony is that you’re in the minority with this opinion, at least in present company).

[Zarono]

@Arundel

(The second layer of irony is that you’re in the minority with this opinion, at least in present company).

isn’t it 2-2 right now? was there a 5th person i’ve been excluding?

[Arundel]

I didn’t mean in this thread, I meant in this community, but you can have the win if it makes you feel better. Now let’s see your response to my other post

[Zarono]

which post was your other post? because i don’t have something against you as a person, if the idea is good, i’ll support it, if they can give me something to do that’s entertaining the whole way up, i don’t mind how long it takes to get to level cap (sorta like FF14) but if i finish the story at level 55 and have to spend the next 45 levels doing the same thing i’ll be doing at level 100, i’d rather just be level 100.

[Arundel]

having long-term goals doesn’t “cater only to” hardcore players. It just gives them a reason to keep playing your game. Having a difficult-to-achieve level cap doesn’t hurt casuals in any way shape or form, because most builds should be able to do all content way before 100. There need to be long-term goals in this game, that’s how it will compete with other ARPGS with aggressive dev cycles and similar gameplay loops. Otherwise, you’ll end up with a D3 situation where your game declines in popularity over time as opposed to growing. They want to support LE for years and years to come. Who among the hardcore ARPG community would want to keep playing if there are no long-term goals that appeal to them?

@Zarono

but if i finish the story at level 55 and have to spend the next 45 levels doing the same thing i’ll be doing at level 100, i’d rather just be level 100.

The story is and always has been meant to be your entry-point into the end game, not the core chunk of its content. People play ARPGS because progression is exciting. Each level should mean something. If you just get an instant pass to max level, you exclude a massive % of the ARPG player base who want to feel that progression and something to grind for. The more goals we take out of the game, the less appealing it will be to people.

[HerrPeppschmier]

@Zaodon

I agree, the speed is just fine. If you play a video game for 16 hrs/day, it might seem fast, but at 1-2 hours / night (once kids are in bed, watched shows with wife, ate dessert, etc.) then it takes forever. And of course, this should be the baseline measurement - how fast it takes a dad to hit 100…

Exactly this!

[Arundel]

Some random dad shouldn’t hit 100

Level 100 isn’t designed for casual play. It’s designed as a time sink for end end game progression.

Ultra casual gamers nowadays want instant, easy access to everything a game has to offer and it’s kind of ruining games. Look at d3. With power leveling you can hit max level and like 800 paragon in an hour. Who finds that fun other than ultra casual players? That’s probably why the only people left playing it are ultra casual players and a few hundred ultra hardcore people pushing GRs every season for a few days until the exact same gameplay loop that’s existed since RoS came out get’s boring again.

[HerrPeppschmier]

To some extent you are right but it depends for what type of player / customers this game is mainly developed for. I didnt say I want everything instantly but if you make reaching lvl 100 significantly longer you ll design a game for nolifers. Casual players might loose interest in playing the game as the might never reach the endgame and be successful in it.

I think it is good as it is right now but I think a lot will change with the next content updates.
A similiar system like paragon levels in D3 might help although I dont love it tbh. Maybe the devs have different ideas alrdy.

[Zarono]

@Arundel

There need to be long-term goals in this game, that’s how it will compete with other ARPGS with aggressive dev cycles and similar gameplay loops.

i mean, that’s what the arena is tho… like, be the guy who dumped 1000 hours into the game and now has the perfect gear down to the stat, refined their strategy, theorycrafted, and got to the top… the game already has that, i don’t know what compounding the leveling experience does for the longevity of the game, other than keeping the casuals away from the one competitive system that’s been implemented so far. this would be even more of an issue if there wasd a level 100 tier of items, but at least at the moment, there isn’t and thus the game sort of caps out at level 80~ for most players, outside of those last few talent points, of course.

@Arundel

Otherwise, you’ll end up with a D3 situation where your game declines in popularity over time as opposed to growing.

D3’s last expansion was 7 years ago, i don’t think the games decline has much to do with the gameplay loop…

@Arundel

The story is and always has been meant to be your entry-point into the end game, not the core chunk of its content.

well yeah, but you’re making a split argument now between end game systems being long term goals, and most of the content being in the leveling experience. like i said, give me something to do that’s enjoyable, i’ll play your game and not be bothered how high my number is, but once i hit that “end game loop” then i should reasonably expect to have an “end game character”

@Arundel

Each level should mean something.

i agree, and arbitrarily making it take longer to level makes each level up to the point where you can participate in the competitive system means you are barring it to casual players who just want to enjoy playing a video game.

@Arundel

If you just get an instant pass to max level, you exclude a massive % of the ARPG player base who want to feel that progression and something to grind for.

then you should be advocating for the devs to put in more content from 55-100, not bloating out those levels because it pleases the hardcore players who want level 100 to be an exclusive club.

@Arundel

The more goals we take out of the game, the less appealing it will be to people.

I’d argue level cap isn’t a goal, it’s the rule. if this was a game with infinite levels (and i don’t mean paragons, i mean literally infinite player levels, you get full level stats, talent points, and power every time then of course you’d want the leveling curve to get exponentially more difficult as players got more and more, because that extra power would matter, but the systems this game is built on means there is a finite amount of stats and resources you can accrue, many of which stop coming in at level 100, at which point your character can now compete in the only currently implemented competitive system, so why would you bother stalling them from progression, just to fullfill some personal fantasy of making them “feel” it?

[Zaodon]

@Arundel

Some random dad shouldn’t hit 100

Again, wrong, elitist, and has no place in this game. As a casual dad, I should be able to reach level cap in the same amount of /played hours as anyone else. It will just take me longer to reach those hours than someone who plays 16 hrs/day. Like, literally, 8 times longer (@ 2 hrs/night). So, the amount of days it should take me to hit the cap should be where EHG balances the game. Then, the no-lifers will hit cap 8 times faster then me, but that’s ok, because they do nothing but play a video game, and they exhaust it’s fun. That’s on them, not on us. We shouldn’t be penalized for their choices.

[Zarono]

@Arundel

With power leveling you can hit max level and like 800 paragon in an hour.

max level in 15 minutes, 800 paragons takes about a day and a half.

[Arundel]

I am not sure how to get around the mindset of a casual gamer who sees level 100 as the cap and expects to just "get’ it. I do think though that we are lucky the game has so much to offer (or at least will) for all types of players to where level 100 is just 1 small piece of the puzzle (like it should be).

In my mind, level 100 isn’t something I feel like I personally deserve or will ever achieve. I play PoE and I’ll add that I am a super hardcore player. I do all content every league, but the 98-100 grind is too much for me. I’d rather make a new build and play the game differently, or try a different farm strat or spend time doing off-league content than mindlessly grinding 5-way conflicts or breach stones or 800 t16 maps (without dying) for a few days. That’s a personal preference that I am given the privilege to have because there are so many other things to do. Level 100 hasn’t been necessary for me since beta in PoE a single time to one of my builds, and it definitely isn’t a crucial part of the gameplay loop. That being said, some people like pushing for 100 every league, some people do it on multiple characters. Those are the people who don’t mind grinding the boring content to hit it, and they should have that opportunity because it’s the way they like to play.

[Mia_LE]

@Zarono

@Arundel

With power leveling you can hit max level and like 800 paragon in an hour.

max level in 15 minutes, 800 paragons takes about a day and a half.

Much faster in party carry. A few hours at best.

And even solo can be only 2-4 days to 800.

[Evok]

I couldn’t agree more and God how I hate the elitism this thread represents. If the devs build the game around that kind of thinking it will not succeed. There are not nearly enough of those kind of players to pay the bills.