Forging range abit too high?

Then you were clearly a lucky guy, i was one of the guys receivig the negative RNG with the old system. I couldnt be more happy with this new system.

Even before this last quick fix patch. I didnt mind the numbers to much but also thought that the range was a bit to high on the lower tiers etc but i was fine with the system how it was.

I mean…I’m almost certain that’s precisely what the devs do on the backend to test these systems? Not that they are going to show the details, but your sample size does at least backup what they have already said, that the crafts are weighted towards the lower end of the range.

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Yes you can write a script but some of you guys seem to forget that in the end RNG is RNG.
So no matter what you think about the numbers and the system… If an automatic system or a player would test crafting with critical succes when RNG is involved, then a different player has a different outcome. Thats why its called RNG.

When you have a bigger sample size (not our noob numbers) then you can dictate more so you can tweak the system of course but still RNG is RNG.

Iam glad that EHG turned this system into a more positive RNG system in my opinion atleast

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Please dont change anything about this Glyph! In my opinion there needs to be a risk reward somewhere indeed :smiley:
Iam having a blast with that glyph. Sometimes my items fail with it and sometimes iam lucky and it works. I love this glyph

Just wanted to say THANK YOU for this work; Absolutely Amazing stuff. Barring bugs discovered or something someone else may find running a larger sampling, Im sold.

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Long live the Gliph of Chaos

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I’m sure that’s plays into it, but I would surmise at the most basic level that most players would only care what the expected result is, not necessarily the algorithm/data sets that go into getting there.

On the plus side, the tests you ran through should at least show from the player-side that the system DOES work in their favor as advertised. Sometimes it does boil down to just “seeing the numbers”.

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I don’t understand this. You can Glyph of Chaos the affix you don’t want, then if you still don’t get what you want by the time it is T5, then YOLO a Rune of Removal like you used to do. The new system allows more chances at success.

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Reduce the forging range at lower tiers / adjust it depending on tier.

This cleary needs more testing and will probably be changed in the next patches.

IMO: This new crafting is worse then the old one. Now you are lucky if you dont brick items With T2 affixes.

Well, yes I did get some luck on occasion, I will not deny that. However, I haven’t mentioned the countless number of items I junked/sold/destroyed as well. I was merely pointing out the process when it did go better than an “oh crap” :smile:
As I’ve mentioned, I’m not saying my initial opinion on it all is my final opinion it is just my current feeling on it. Neither am I advocating that I am right or wrong, I am merely expressing myself at this moment in time. I haven’t had the spare time yet to try things out since the new patch, but I hope to get some time over the weekend.

With respect, what you are advocating seems almost impossible. Firstly, I’d need very good luck to roll the affix I wanted with the chaos only eliminating the existing 3 types and leaving me with a 1 in whatever chance to get the new one I want. Even then, if that didn’t work, to assume I would be left with anywhere even approaching enough FP to attempt to burn a removal, THEN try raising a new affix from 1-5 I think I would possibly need a starting FP of about 150 :smile:

I get what you are trying to say, but I suspect that after trying the chaos, that would pretty much be the end of my attempt on that item without some insanely incredible luck. I would probably have to sacrifice 100’s of goats to the Gods to get that level of RNG and I’ve never ever been in the good books of the RNG gods in any game I’ve ever played.

Still, it’s an interesting concept, and one I will remember to attempt to try at some point.

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Yeah, crafting T19+ exalts with 40+ FP is extremely easy. It might be too easy.

Yes, I understand what you are saying and I acknowledge the benefits highlighted in your bullet points and they are good QoL. I did state in one of my early posts that there was a good chance, and often a probable one that the item would basically brick with a removal rune. The post above wasn’t a stand alone post, I had made more earlier.

My opinion is, and I did do a little testing last night, that I am still very uncertain about the new system as it is now. I think that the penalty for the removal rune is way too high, in line with average FP starting values. The removal rune already has a large risk, as you pointed out, of zapping out an affix you wanted to keep so why also give it a 1-10 FP cost?

Now, to again clarify a little further, I should point out that my crafting at the moment in the game is not to gear up a character for monos or for empowereds, or arena. I am using a highly tuned build and the crafting I am doing is to possibly upgrade items. Most of my items are T18+ at the moment before the patch, some are T20 and some are T20+. The item bases I use have been carefully selected to maximise things like resistances without having to use many affixes for that purpose. Those bases are also tied in with the blessings I currently have to maximise other things like Crit Resist, Armor etc.

So, the crafting I am doing is NOT typical crafting, and I should have made that clearer. Every one of my current pieces is already the desired base, and already has all 4 affixes I want on each.

So, my current opinion and testing is based around my character, and not purely a general test. I can see and I do acknowledge that the new system probably does outweigh the old one in potential for new characters and making new builds.

I did try with about 20 items last night the “chaos method” instead of the removal method and it did do exactly what I listed above in my example. Remember, this was trying to mimic what I was doing in the old system and my hopes were to basically change 1 useless affix to a new T5 affix. My loot filter is already set pretty high and so the sample size for my character is always going to be low due to initial requirements, and I did no crafting on anything below rare level, so only rares & exalted. In every attempt, the new system gave me another undesirable affix from chaos’ing, and therefore I ran out of FP.

For characters like mine, who are only looking to fine tune already finished gear, I have 2 possible suggestions to make the new system completely better than the old system.

  1. Make the Removal cost either 0 or very low say, 1-3
  2. Give the Chaos rune the power to re-roll at T5, or a new rune altogether, even if the FP cost is much higher for this last ditch roll.

These would make fine tuning attempts feel so much better in my opinion and they also wouldn’t really effect all the other types of crafting (low, mono start, std mono → empowered).

Just an idea. :smile:

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For further clarification, here’s the build and gear I am “tweaking”.

MaelVK

Due to careful crafting/gathering/planning it has max resists on every resist type, max crit avoid, high HP, dps, mana + regen, leech, mana costs. It also has high armor (buffed) and decent endurance. I don’t take credit for the original ideas, I got them from @boardman21 as usual (who is a genius) and then I combined 2 builds and then tweaked that to my personal preferences.

So, all I am trying to do is further fine tune each base item and it’s very much a tweaking process. Again, therefore I fully acknowledge that my opinion on the new system is not a “catch all” opinion, it is very much based around a fine-tuning existing perspective.

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Yep, just realized how frustrating that 25 cost can be :slight_smile: I think a cost between 1 and 5 is acceptable to make this Rune far more interesting.

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i agree that seems a bit on the high end

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iam quite baffled aswell about this but he can have his opinion
i also think the new system allows more chances at succes. Especially if you know what your doing Glyph wise.

It allows more chances at success if you’re ok with the large pool of options. Some people really are looking at very specific affixes on gear… For them (myself included), the random roll of the dice on the huge pool isnt effective or desirable… Just means we have to try on more items, and may get some decently usable ones in the effort (currently me) but I wouldnt say its a Success.

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Feels slightly better after the new patch which gives more forging potential across the board.
But Glyph of Hope is still troll worthy in lots of cases.

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Yes, this precisely. Thank you @RedeemerX

I am afraid that the more I experiment with this new system, the more I prefer the old system. Sorry if that upsets people, but that’s the trend my opinion is taking.

So, my example above was for tweaking a high level new item, for upgrade. As I don’t get a lot of starting drops to try that I spent last night dedicated to doing something slightly different.

I decided to try to make a new wand for my build using some of the techniques that people have suggested here: using the free add T1’s, being less picky about the starting point, making large use of the chaos rolls.

My aiming point was any Dragonhorn Wand with one of the following prefixes( I will list my most wanted as a and less wanted as b) : Crit Strike Multi (a), Cast Speed (a), Spell Crit Str Chance (b), Spell Damage - that’s 2/13 ideal, 4/13 worst case.
I then wanted the following suffixes: Chance to Shock (a), Increased Stun (a), Chance to Chill (b) - that’s 2/7 ideal, 3/7 worst case.
I wanted a minimum of 2 x T5’s preferably the prefixes, and I would settle for 2 x T4’s on the suffixes after crafting.

I amended my loot filter to make sure I grabbed every magic&rare item that had 2 of my ideals as a starting point, and I already grab every exalted that drops anyway.

So I was trying 2 things: crafting on magics (less chance) and crafting on rares. I was not going to ever use a removal rune, only adding affixes or chaos/hope upgrading existing. For adding, I mixed it up and occasionally tried using Hope with the desired one rather than using the free T1 add.

I didn’t keep a spreadsheet (apologies) as I wanted to just spend the entire night grinding away through Empowered mono’s for bases. My corruption was at 203 and I was in Stolen Lance for added wands probability.

Now, I know that a lot of the opinions expressed here are that this new system “feels better” for making new gear, and I respect their opinions. This was my test for making a new wand that I would take as a minimum new one into Empowered mono’s if this was on a newer build I was making identical to mine. So, not a end of questline item, not a starting monos item, but a starting Empowerd’s item, a T18. As it’s the weapon, I always try for T18 on new builds typically in these circumstances. Under the old system I found it quite easy to make those using the Gambler, or drops as starting points, and then crafting away on them.

With the magics I tried, firstly the chaos rolls just felt incredibly bad. I hate RNG at the best of times, and this seemed like the worst case of RNG. Ok, my Prefixes should have been 4/13 worst case, so I was expecting those to feel a little nasty. They did not disappoint, I hit my 4/13 once all night on magics, so ended up nuking all of the magics after running out of FP. The Suffixes were the ones that hurt the most though. My worst case statistically should have been 3/7 worst case. I only managed 2 in all of my attempts. As I have mentioned previously, I know the RNG gods hate me, which is why I hate RNG but 2? Anyway, in every magic item case I ran out of FP after trying about 3-4 crafts on average. So out of about 60 magics I tried, I ended up with 0 usable items. I can tell you quite honestly, I never had that failure rate on the old system starting with magics that already had 2 affixes I wanted on them to get them to T18.

Rares were not much better. Once again, the Chaos rolls were a complete disaster, they burnt up FP and just seemed to give me everything apart from the pre/suff’s I was looking for. Starting with the “free” T1 therefore simply meant more burning of FP with Chaos only to get everything apart from what I wanted, thus bricking my items. Starting with a “hope” aptly named, and injecting a pre/suff I actually wanted burnt out a large amount of FP on every attempt. I use the word “large” as the amount used as a percentage of the starting FP (normally around 25-36 from what I had drop). Using hope for upgrading from T1 seemed to use less, but by then the damage was done. I can honestly say that the rares were way more frustrating than the magics. They should (according to the posters in here) have been better, but they felt really bad in my experiment. The sample was smaller due to drops, but I still got to try with about 35 of them last night. Once again, every single one either “bricked” or I finished with 0 FP well short of the T18 desired goal. Again, I say hand on heart, I never had this level of failure with the old system.

So, although this is not a scientific experiment, I did not keep a spreadsheet (then I would have had way less time to actually experiment) this is what is fuelling my opinion.

To me, using the chaos as an alternative to removal a random/adding specifics just isn’t anywhere near as viable. Plus, instead of reducing my “feels bad”, it made it feel way worse. I will continue to test tonight and update my unpopular opinion :smile:

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Honestly, I have stopped playing the games since this update.

It’s just pure disaster. Once again always the same voices that shout the loudest to say that the new system is fantastic, but as on any subject that criticizes (constructively) the developers and their choice.

No matter what the constructive complaints are or not, there will always be an army of devotees to preach the holy words.

In short, when these people say that you have to accept that the system is more random than the one before, drives me crazy. The goal was precisely to reduce the random. Objectively we can say that it is a failure.

When the saying “best rune” is the completely random chaos rune, or the rune that affixes luck once again.
Do we call that craftsmanship?
Luckily real crafts aren’t so lucky.

So for a moment you just have to be honest, this new system is crap, it’s full luck.

So here we have a little honor, I prefer to stop the game while waiting for a patch or a return to the old system (very well, that there was no need to explode everything like that)
Today it’s be you cheat and use software to generate your objects just to play (and have fun, I am not happy to farm in loop like a robot for 3 min a rift in loop) be you a little honor like me and you refuse that way, and you get it in the ass, and you have to pray for a patch to come out.

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