For Goodness' Sake FIX MINIONS

[HorusKBZ]

@Psojed

Just to inform you, the dictionary disagrees with you.

Only if you cherry-pick the 1st of 2 given definitions.
The second one agrees with Scipo.

2: to enlarge or increase especially beyond the normal : overemphasize
Overemphasize: to give excessive emphasis to (something)

Words have meaning. But sometimes more than one.

@Psojed

You think people who agree with something, but aren’t willing to leave commentary on the subject, are biased or intellectually dishonest? I really hope you’re joking.

IF you are willing to comment but aren’t willing to be anything but lopsided despite knowing better, that is a sign of being biased or intellectually dishonest.

@Psojed

Oh, so all players who don’t use keyboard misplay the game. Nice

Do you play on a good old 2 button joystick from the C64 era or a steering wheel? You can control your minions with a controller, too. Nice try,

@Psojed

A proper example would be that “Maelstrom suddenly stops dealing damage while the effect is still active”.

In this example, the minions have no additional target in aggression range (which is centred on the character). They don’t stop dealing damage for an arbitrary reason. It’s like Maelstrom has killed all targets in range, but then you complain it does not deal damage to target outside the range.

@Psojed

I’d say the range should be based on your screen resolution, so a dynamic range, not a fixed radius.

The main problem is the north-south direction, which, I think, is not really that much a difference. It’s the wideness of the screen that has the main difference. Because of wide-screens and the camera perspective, your minions would long be gone from visual range to the south before they reach the monster at the 11 o’clock position in the example the OP posted. Approximately, that requires ~ 1.4 times the radius.

Imagine giving Elemental Nova players 20 o 40% more radius if they play on an ultra-wide screen. I think it is bad/unfair, giving players more range because of the screen ratio. It is significant enough.

People are already advantaged just because they can see farther to the east or west.

@Psojed

There’s a certain range where enemies realize you’re there, and start attacking you. At that moment, the enemy is put on a list.

Except if the enemy is targeting one of your minions, and you are still outside the enemy range. Which can happen. Furthermore, some monsters, like the poison bombard flowers, detect you very early. Do we want our minions to start running at them and pulling half the map? We still need some boundary, I think. The question is, how far away does it go?

If we increase the radius, we shift the problem just farther to the corners of the screen, unless we fill the whole screen. Drawing some circles in SketchUp with the approximate camera angle and distance, it requires about 2.75 times the radius to reach my top-left corner of the screen in comparison to what I estimate the current radius is. 21:9 screen.

With some tweaks, your idea could at least provide a better experience than we currently have. As long as an enemy has aggro on you or one of your (mobile) minions, it is put on the list. As long as this one targeted minion fights, all other minions are allowed to move up to this range.

[Scipo0419]

@Psojed

I see you’re still missing the point of the showcase. /sigh

The issue is obviously happening during normal gameplay,

I see you still can’t read more than cherry picked points.

@Scipo0419

I use the tool at my disposal to return them back to the fray even if they should not have disengaged in the first place.

Literally, the very next sentence, and bolded for you too. I see you even quoted it. Too bad you came to the wrong conclusion again.

@Psojed

your way of playing the game is irrelevant to the issue being reported.

You would. I gave you three examples.

Here we go…

@Psojed

I can browse my inventory, or be checking loot, or be in the nemesis window, and all of these situations will produce the exact same issue as shown on the video - while the player does something.

• Browsing your inventory = also known as doing something when you’re standing there. You’re not WATCHING your one minion fight while the rest stand by your side. You’re in your inventory, unaware of what’s going on.
• Checking loot = also known as doing something when you’re standing there. You’re not WATCHING your one minion fight while the rest stand by your side. You’re checking loot, unaware of what’s going on.
• in the nemesis window = also known as doing something when you’re standing there. You’re not WATCHING your one minion fight while the rest stand by your side. You’re in the nemesis window, unaware of what’s going on.

Notice how Sartheris was not in any windows, he was just WATCHING his one minion fight while the rest stood by his side.

Do you get what I’m saying on how his footage was an exaggeration of standard gameplay? No one would just stand there and watch in the same situation as his footage.

@Psojed

No, it doesn’t.

Yes. It literally is an exaggeration, by definition. Thankfully you quoted it for me.

merriam-webster.com

Definition of EXAGGERATE
to enlarge beyond bounds or the truth : overstate; to enlarge or increase especially beyond the normal : overemphasize; to make an overstatement… See the full definition

So, was Sartheris’s footage a direct representation of the standard gameplay a player would experience? Would a player stand there and watch, not in their inventory, not in the nemesis window, not checking loot, but just watching as all but one minion was in combat and the rest had disengaged? Because, I don’t think so. I think most players would react to the situation. He’s using exaggeration as a tool to emphasize how bad the minion AI is, he’s (by definition) enlarging the situation beyond the truth.

@Psojed

@Scipo0419

I’m not subtly attacking anything.

We can agree to disagree

You’re disagreeing with a fact. I’m not attacking anything. I’ve proven this.

@Psojed

And I’m telling you what you actually wrote and how it sounds. It doesn’t really matter what your intention was.

No you’re telling me how it sounds to you. And I’m telling you that your interpretation of what I’m saying is wrong. That’s a fact. I’m the author, per say.

@Psojed

@Scipo0419

And you keep telling me what I meant…

No.
I keep telling you what you wrote. There’s a difference

And I’m telling you that what you think about what I wrote is a wrong conclusion. You’re literally fighting me about what I meant about what I said. I know what I said, I’ve quoted myself repeatedly in this discussion.

@Psojed

@Scipo0419

I wish I could spare myself from this shitstorm too.

You can. Think about it…

You must not be able to read. The shitstorm I’m referring to is the shitstorm I quoted you on.

@Scipo0419

@Psojed

I’m glad you decided to spare us the shitstorm from overseas

I wish I could spare myself from this shitstorm too.

Since it’s obvious that you cherry pick statements, come up with what you think the person said and meant and then tell them that they’re wrong when they’re telling you exactly what they said and meant. I’m done with this discussion, feel free to reply and I’ll read it, but I won’t respond back and continue derailing this thread. My last piece of advice is to not assume you know everything about what someone else is saying. They know what they said better than you do.

Edit: thinking more on it, I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m calling an exaggeration. The minion’s breaking off and not re-engaging is not an exaggeration. I’ve literally confirmed it’s happened to me. Standing there and watching your one minion fight while the rest stand around and not doing anything about it is the exaggerated part. He’s showcasing that without player input the minion AI will not re-engage.

[Psojed]

@Scipo0419

• Browsing your inventory = also known as doing something when you’re standing there. You’re not WATCHING your one minion fight while the rest stand by your side. You’re in your inventory, unaware of what’s going on.
• Checking loot = also known as doing something when you’re standing there. You’re not WATCHING your one minion fight while the rest stand by your side. You’re checking loot, unaware of what’s going on.
• in the nemesis window = also known as doing something when you’re standing there. You’re not WATCHING your one minion fight while the rest stand by your side. You’re in the nemesis window, unaware of what’s going on.

Notice how Sartheris was not in any windows, he was just WATCHING his one minion fight while the rest stood by his side.

That is some galaxy brain shit right there. Hopefully one day you’ll get it.

@Scipo0419

So, was Sartheris’s footage a direct representation of the standard gameplay a player would experience?

Yes.

@Scipo0419

And I’m telling you that your interpretation of what I’m saying is wrong. That’s a fact.

No. That’s your opinion.

@Scipo0419

You must not be able to read. The shitstorm I’m referring to is the shitstorm I quoted you on.

I know. And you really could spare yourself. Think about it harder I guess.

@Scipo0419

Standing there and watching your one minion fight while the rest stand around and not doing anything about it is the exaggerated part. He’s showcasing that without player input the minion AI will not re-engage.

I’m glad you finally got the point of his showcase. Unfortunately you still galaxy-brained the showcase as an exaggeration. Like I said above, hopefully one day you’ll get it.

@Scipo0419

I’m done with this discussion

No problem, let’s end it here.

[Psojed]

@HorusKBZ

Only if you cherry-pick the 1st of 2 given definitions.
The second one agrees with Scipo.

I quoted what he said in this topic, it’s not just this one word.

@HorusKBZ

IF you are willing to comment but aren’t willing to be anything but lopsided despite knowing better, that is a sign of being biased or intellectually dishonest.

That I agree with.

@HorusKBZ

Do you play on a good old 2 button joystick from the C64 era or a steering wheel? You can control your minions with a controller, too. Nice try,

C64 joystick and steering wheel Another great example of galaxy-braining.

The reality is much simpler. People who specifically look to play builds with least inputs required. People with limited mobility. People with disabilities.
It’s real nice to see what you think about people who don’t always use keyboard.

@HorusKBZ

In this example, the minions have no additional target in aggression range (which is centred on the character). They don’t stop dealing damage for an arbitrary reason.

I know how it works. That is what we want fixed.

@HorusKBZ

It’s like Maelstrom has killed all targets in range, but then you complain it does not deal damage to target outside the range.

But we are in range - you can see the third minion still fighting. If were were outside of range, all minions should retreat.

Either way, aggro range is irrelevant.
The minion is your damaging skill, and you don’t want half of your damaging skill to stop damaging when your damaging skill is still dealing damage - hence my Maelstorm example.

@HorusKBZ

Because of wide-screens and the camera perspective, your minions would long be gone from visual range to the south before they reach the monster at the 11 o’clock position in the example the OP posted.

Well, if your screen is wide, your screen resolution is also wide, that covers the sides, right?

As for south, nothing you can do, UI is a requirement. The range should be equal to enemies aggro range. If enemies can attack from the south where you can’t see, then minions should also attack that far, even if you can’t see.

@HorusKBZ

Imagine giving Elemental Nova players 20 o 40% more radius if they play on an ultra-wide screen. I think it is bad/unfair, giving players more range because of the screen ratio. It is significant enough.

Please.
You’re comparing area of effect to range. Not the same thing.
Minion leash range and Elemental Nova area. Also not the same thing.

@HorusKBZ

People are already advantaged just because they can see farther to the east or west.

Yes, people also have an advantage when they buy a better mouse or keyboard or higher refresh rate monitor. But I don’t see competitive games banning high DPI mice or high refresh rate monitors. LE isn’t competitive in any way, so this most certainly doesn’t matter to us

@HorusKBZ

Except if the enemy is targeting one of your minions, and you are still outside the enemy range. Which can happen. Furthermore, some monsters, like the poison bombard flowers, detect you very early. Do we want our minions to start running at them and pulling half the map?

I think that falls under the “other applicable situations” I mentioned, so the enemy is removed from the list so that your minions don’t chase and pull half the map. Basically I’d keep the current default where “minion staying close to summoner” has higher priority than “minion defending itself”.

This could also be configurable. I think someone already suggested minion formations so that minions walk in front of him rather than lag behind him, so adding

• aggressive (engage and chase off-screen)
• defensive (engage, but stay in leash range)
• hold ground (don’t move, only defend if target comes into range)

stances are another level of that.

[HorusKBZ]

@Psojed

The reality is much simpler. People who specifically look to play builds with least inputs required. People with limited mobility. People with disabilities.
It’s real nice to see what you think about people who don’t always use keyboard.

I have a disabled wife and multiple disabled friends. More than 20 years ago, a friend of my father played D2 one-handed with a programmable mouse with 3 or 5 extra buttons. It was the first time I saw a programmable mouse. I bought one myself back then, and new ones ever since. Currently, I have a Razer Naga, using the 12 button variant. Most of the time, I don’t use the keyboard myself while playing ARPGs.
If people play with the controller, there is the left stick.
If all they can do is moving the character, then they can move closer.
Least amount of inputs does not mean ‘no inputs’.

@Psojed

But we are in range - you can see the third minion still fighting. If were were outside of range, all minions should retreat.

There are multiple ranges at work. One for acquiring new targets. One for continuing the fight. If the player moves too far away, the minion will break off and follow the player, despite still fighting.

@Psojed

Please.
You’re comparing area of effect to range. Not the same thing.
Minion leash range and Elemental Nova area. Also not the same thing.

For a skill or effect centred around the character, area equals range. Since the aggro range of minions is centred on the character, as is the unmodified elemental nova, this is comparable. More range, more advantage.

@Psojed

Yes, people also have an advantage when they buy a better mouse or keyboard or higher refresh rate monitor. But I don’t see competitive games banning high DPI mice or high refresh rate monitors. LE isn’t competitive in any way, so this most certainly doesn’t matter to us

And yet, many players will care because they see this as a competitive game, as misguided as I think this is, personally. Or just out of the principle of fairness.

@Psojed

This could also be configurable. I think someone already suggested minion formations so that minions walk in front of him rather than lag behind him, so adding

• aggressive (engage and chase off-screen)
• defensive (engage, but stay in leash range)
• hold ground (don’t move, only defend if target comes into range)

stances are another level of that.

Yes, this is how I would like the game to be, both the formations and the stances. Archers and mages behind me, golems walk in front of me to trigger initial aggro and tank some projectiles.

As long as there is no customisation for the AI behaviour, I prefer the minions to not run off-screen too much. I really hate that.

[Psojed]

@HorusKBZ

Most of the time, I don’t use the keyboard myself while playing ARPGs.

If you really do that, and have the experiences you described, then how can you say that people who don’t use the A button misplay the game?

@HorusKBZ

Least amount of inputs does not mean ‘no inputs’.

There are people who want no inputs too for sure For example here.

Anyway, the point of that comment originally was that there are people who don’t want to, or can’t quickly press A, so in those cases pressing A isn’t their “standard gameplay”.

@HorusKBZ

There are multiple ranges at work. One for acquiring new targets. One for continuing the fight. If the player moves too far away, the minion will break off and follow the player, despite still fighting.

So, you agree with me?

Yes, we are in range of “continuing the fight” - you can see the third minion is still fighting. Ergo, the other minions should continue fighting aswell. They don’t. That’s the issue.

We are in Maelstorm range. It’s dealing damage. Ergo, it should keep dealing damage. But it stops after a while. That’s the parallel.

[HorusKBZ]

@Psojed

If you really do that, and have the experiences you described, then how can you say that people who don’t use the A button misplay the game?

I mapped ‘A’ on button 10 on the thumb field of my mouse. So I use the ‘A’ attack command.

Being disabled sucks. But I engage with disabled people regularly. There are many ways to work around one’s disabilities or make them less impactful. My wife and another friend of mine have topographagnosia. My wife is a little princess - she puts no effort in learning how to use a navigation app like Google Maps. Therefore, for all routes she has not studied for months, she requires someone to accompany her. My friend, on the other hand, took matters in her own hands and learned using the app. 10 years ago, I could not meet with her somewhere in the city because she would not find the way on her own. Now she can, no problem.

If one can’t walk, there are wheelchairs. If one can’t handle normal game controls to a satisfying degree, there are input methods and tools that can help. Eyetrackers, pedals, touchscreens.

16 years ago, I considered switching from train automation to input device development after meeting a few nice devs working on this at the CeBit expo.

If I were a player who wants to reduce inputs as much as possible, and I could only use the mouse in a limited way, I would probably go for a full minion build, too.
Left mouse button for movement, right mouse button mapped for minion controls, maybe.
Perhaps using up and downscrolling of the mouse wheel to quaff healing potions and summon the town portal. Pressing the mouse wheel for teleport.

Again, being disabled sucks. But not using minion controls if that is the style of play you decided to go for is misplaying the game.