For Goodness' Sake FIX MINIONS

General
21

I mean, I can only go off my experience as a player and as soon as I notice (even if it takes a few seconds) that my minions aren’t fighting. I’m not going to just sit there and watch the last minion continue to fight as shown in Sartheris’s video.

Yes, players are absolutely going to miss their minions failing to stay in combat in the heat of the moment. Sartheris wasn’t in the heat of the moment. He literally had 1 enemy left and left it to the last minion still fighting it. Unless you’re not watching the screen at all, this would never happen in normal gameplay unless it’s to showcase how bad the minion AI is, which is what Sartheris is doing.

22

Yes, but the point that he was trying to show is that minions often just disengage randomly. And very often you don’t notice it in the heat of battle.
And even when you do notice it, you still have to manouver the minions back into battle and already lost some seconds of DPS. And if this is a recurring issue, you’re effectively losing DPS to bad AI.
So it is a problem, even if you don’t just stop and stare at the screen.

That being said, minion AI is notoriously difficult. EHG has been improving it over time and we can expect more improvements in the future. Mike has addressed this issue in his stream and said it’s something they’re usually always actively working on.

1 Like
23

Nope. Not randomly, but after finishing current fight with all aggro targets in their list, then checking player-minion distance and moving back to master
Watch vid again. Mob is dead - minion goes back

24

Yes, but what also happens very frequently is that a minion kills an enemy, has another enemy in range, but they will still move back to the player before going back into combat. I see this quite often even when I’m close to the packs, especially with melee minions.
Is it because the enemies are outside its melee range? I don’t know. But it does happen often enough to be noticeable.

25

No. Not in range, in their “to kill” list. Range has less priority. + p-m recheking
As I see it is because this “to kill” list is personal for every single skeleton and other minion, but not a group list. Like hey u r hitting my bro - I’m in!

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26

I never denied this. I don’t know why everyone seems to think I did. (edit: hah! Hyperbole in action.)

All I said was, that Sartheris used exaggeration, by not playing how a typical player would, to emphasize how bad the minion AI actually is.

He showcased that, with 0 player input, the minions will ignore enemies right next to them and then just stand around.

In standard play, as soon as the player noticed this, they’d use the tool at their disposal (aka, ‘A’) to redirect their minions back into combat. Sartheris didn’t do this, because his point was “minion AI bad” not “it’s annoying to have to press A to keep my minions in combat.”

He’s right. Minion AI is bad, I never said otherwise lol.

2 Likes
27

I call it the “Mommy may I.” As in the minion goes out does something then comes back to get praised before it goes back out again… if it does go back out

4 Likes
28

But do we want minions to always act as a group? I am often annoyed that they focus their aggression too much. I rather have them engage multiple targets, covering more area and binding more aggro.

I don’t particularly like it if monsters come close to my necro and my minions fight somewhere in the distance.

Stances. We need stances. Then players can temper the minion experience to their taste.

What I can tell: squirrels are hyper-agressive compared to wraiths. They will engage new targets beyond my visual range. I tried for an hour to replicate the behaviour in the OP’s gif with them, no chance. It worked in seconds with wraith on my necro.

The solution might be to just increase the default aggression / return to player distance for wraith and some other minions.

29

these golems keep either going to attack or not and get caught mid-way inconsistently. You have to A a lot to keep them in check but it confuses them it seems on when they attack with multiple enemies. I just play the turret fire wraith build and that is pretty decent but the golems leave a lot of pathing issues or too big to fit etc.

30

I run mainly skelly archers. Perhaps I am wrong, I always thought they were kill-stealing the targets for my golems. Is this also a golem-only problem?

31

The golem AI is pretty good (running an Aaron’s Will necro atm) and just having 2 wraiths makes them do less dumb stuff? Cause I have zero issues with them. The death knights are also pretty solid. Would be cool if the shade was an aura or something. Having to cast it and treat it like another pet is a little too much micro-management imo. The AI is a lot better than D4, lol

32

This is likely a bug, and should be reported as such. I have a Necromancer that uses a single minion (Arch-Mage) and when the event mobs spawn containing Wraiths, he attacks the boss but completely ignores the Wraiths. I have to target a Wraith to get him to attack it and have to do this with each one until they are gone.

He has no problems with the Skeleton mobs, just the Wraiths, and I haven’t see if it’s just a specific type of Wraith yet, which I will have to find out.

33

First, distance plays a role in minion AI, so moving or not is obviously a factor.

Secondly, you’re the one who mentioned not moving.
Your full sentence says that Sartheris is exaggerating because

  • he stands around
    and
  • is not doing anything

If you “stand around”, it means you’re not moving.
If your point really was only “no one is just going to watch the minion fight and not do anything”, then the “stand ground” part of your sentence wasn’t required. However this would make your argument even more silly. I can browse my inventory, or be checking loot, or be in the nemesis window, and all of these situations will produce the exact same issue as shown on the video - while the player does something.
So no, when Sartheris posts a video where his minions fight without the player pressing A, it is not exaggerating.

No, you didn’t agree with him.

You argued that minions breaking off combat mid-fight isn’t a problem that needs to be solved, because you can press A. And apparently you think that this topic only exists because, quote

It clearly shows you’re still missing the point of this topic.

I wonder what would people say if their spells suddenly decided to not hit the enemies. Oh wait, I don’t need to wonder - for example people already reported the homing fireball orbiting enemies as a bug too :slight_smile:

This is the second time you posted a similar question in the span of a few days. So let me clarify this for you.

  1. This isn’t about you.
  2. When you post comments on the internet, others will reply to them.
  3. Some people will not agree with what you said.

If you don’t want this, don’t post comments online.

34

Firstly, you’re breaking up my statement unnecessarily. “stand around not doing anything” is one statement, not two. I’m not sure how you play the game, but I don’t watch 1 minion fight while 2 more stand next to me. I send them back into combat with A and continue moving around. He’s exaggerating to prove the point that Minion AI is terrible. I’ve said this in multiple posts. He’s right and is using exaggeration as a tool to emphasize how bad it is. ffs, I didn’t think I needed to spell that out to someone.

Stop cherry picking, my full quote and the point of it, if you know how to read, is bolded.

You, specifically, are coming at me in multiple threads where you cherry pick points from my post and act like I’m not agreeing with you or the OP when I clearly am. Hence, “why are you coming at me?”, if we disagreed with each other I wouldnt say that because I’ve had 50+ post arguments with others like Kulze over disagreements and never said “why are you coming at me.”

You’re literally starting an argument with someone who is agreeing with you over one word “exaggerating” because… I don’t even know? You don’t know how hyperbole works?

35

I needed a second post, because I’ve not once, this entire thread, argued that. (adding bold after the fact for emphasis so you can understand it better.)

I had a typo on ‘big’ when it should have been ‘bit’. Maybe that’s part of it. But “exaggerated for effect.” was the key takeaway.

So, please, show me where I ever argued that "minions breaking off mid fight isn’t a problem.

Edit: removed last sentence because it’s based on U.S. Politics atm and was unnecessary

36

One sentence can contain multiple statements. I specifically broke up this sentence of yours into parts, because you apparently don’t realize what you wrote. It’s great if you think only about “not doing anything”, but when you write “stand around not doing anything”, it means just that. Words have meanings.

Great. We’re aware that you can move minions with the “A” command. However, your way of playing the game is irrelevant to the issue being reported.

I’ve already given you example situations where your “standard” doesn’t apply.

Not directly, no.

Normally, when a person agrees with something, they won’t be stating that the thing they agree with is:

  • “not typically how it would go”
  • “exaggerated”
  • “not showcasing gameplay that a player would typically perform”
  • “not playing how a typical player would”

and so on. You don’t see the negative connotations from your sentences? It feels like you keep subtly attacking the message. In this case you have a very weird way of agreeing with someone.

If someone replying to you means they’re “coming at you”, then you’re probably a bit delusional. I recommend taking a break from …whatever it is… that makes you feel like this.

I’m glad you decided to spare us the shitstorm from overseas :smiley:

1 Like
37

Yes, words do indeed have meanings. And taking words out of context and applying your own meanings to them only works with dead authors and poets. Thankfully, I’m still alive (I hope), so I can explicitly tell you what my words mean. And when I say “stand around not doing anything” I mean, “most players won’t stand there not doing anything watching a single minion fight while his two others disengage and stand next to him.” I already told DJ:

If you like to go into your inventory and then leave it and realize only one minion is fighting and then sit there and watch that’s on you. I use the tool at my disposal to return them back to the fray even if they should not have disengaged in the first place.

The issue at hand: minions disengage when enemies are standing right next to them.

I completely agree this is an issue and never stated otherwise.

There are two options at this point in time when this issue pops up: press ‘a’, or keep watching as only 1 minion fights. Idk about you, but I’m picking option 1 and I’m sure 90% (hyperbole) of other players would do the same. This doesn’t make the issue irrelevant, but it does make Sartheris’s actions (or lack thereof) an exaggeration for effect. I take it you’re not a native English speaker, so just to inform you, exaggerating for effect is not a bad thing and pointing it out does not devalue the statement. For example: “This is the best meal I’ve ever eaten!” is a exaggerating for effect and saying “oh you’re exaggerating” doesn’t make the message, “this meal was delicious” any less valid.

I covered the statements above, but I’m going to reiterate, pointing out that an example was exaggerated for effect does not make the statement less true. You wouldn’t normally play like Sartheris did in his video, but you are still going to experience your minions disengaging and standing around until you redirect them. He never redirected them, because it wasn’t about how annoying it is to use the A button but how we shouldn’t be dealing with this in the first place. None of my statements were negative and most of them were directed directly to Sartheris when I was asked how his video was exaggerated and not specifically about the issue.

I’m not subtly attacking anything. His showcase was an exaggeration of typical gameplay to emphasize how bad minion AI can be. That’s just stating a fact. I agree with him that minion ai is terrible and using exaggeration to prove his point is a perfectly valid tool.

Replying to me is not “coming at me”. Again, 50+ post argument with Kulze and it never came up. But when someone comes up with their own interpretation of what I’m saying and then when I say, you’re taking me the wrong way. And you keep telling me what I meant… I’m sorry man but I think I know what I’m saying better than you do.

Once again, I’m not a dead author/poet for you to derive meaning from my words. I’m literally telling you that what you perceived about what I said was wrong.

I wish I could spare myself from this shitstorm too.

38

That’s a bs premise. It’s a sign of biased and intellectual dishonest people if they aren’t willing to make points like these.

I agree that this AI behaviour leaves much to be desired. I would prefer this to be changed. Stances per type of minion and maybe formations are on my wish list for future improvements.

But if a player stays outside the current aggression range for new targets and does not use the A button for whatever reason, they misplay the game. It doesn’t matter whether they check the inventory or interact with any other interface, have a drink, or whatever.
Imagine a Maelstrom player stays outside the area of his skill and complains that it doesn’t damage enemies too far away while the player is busy managing the loot filter.

I see both a problem with the default AI as it currently is (or at least the problem Sartheris has with it) AND player behaviour like this. This is not mutually exclusive.

Connotation refers to additional meaning and emotional responses beyond the literal meaning of a message. It’s - here comes the magic word - subjective. This dispute between you two is a nice case-study for the four-sides-model at work. :wink:

To steer the conversation in a more productive direction:
As long as there is only a default AI that can’t be changed - how should a good minion AI behave like?

We need some ranges, so the minions don’t walk too far off. The whole screen as range is an issue since there are different resolutions and screen ratios. It would also lead to different ranges from south to north because of perspective distortion.

If we want equal distances in all directions, we require a radius around the player before minions forcefully return. If this radius is too large, minions will leave the screen. Do we as players want that? If they do run off, it might lead to more unwanted aggression from mobs we have not yet seen.

The current radius is about as large as you can get without giving the minions a lot of room to disappear from the screen to the south.

Currently, minions that are engaged in a fight will continue this fight outside the range they would acquire new targets at. Each minion is an individual entity without knowledge of what the other minions are doing.

I think something Sartheris was suggesting is linking minion AI to show group behaviour. If one minion is still fighting, other minions react to this and will join this fight, even if it is outside the range they normally would acquire a new target.

Technically, this could mean that each minion entity needs to check for each other minion entity if it is fighting periodically. The number of checks exponentially increases with the number of minions you have. My necro runs 23 minions IIRC, that would be 529 checks each cycle. Would this cause a significant load on the servers? How fast is unity with stuff like that? How much leeway have servers for additional calculations like that?

Is there a better way to link the AI instead of each minion checking what each other minion is doing?

1 Like
39

I think the best way would be to have a tether to the player, like a dog leash (but with a bit of wiggle room, maybe like a meter or two) the minions would have an individual aggro radius maybe 3/4ths the size of the player’s so they’d only aggro enemies who are already close enough to aggro you naturally, but they’d be able to keep searching for new enemies within that radius after leaving your side.

The only issue I see with this approach are ranged minions possibly not “seeing” something a melee minion does. Which you covered with checks for if other minions are fighting.

40

I see you’re still missing the point of the showcase. /sigh

The issue is obviously happening during normal gameplay, as well as during any menu interaction. Hopefully everyone understands that when you want to show a bug, recording a normal gameplay where tons of stuff is happening constantly, OR recording an open menu that blocks your screen is really fucking stupid.

So, instead of recording gameplay with lots of stuff happening at once, or recording the menu, you close any open menus and just do nothing in the game world to showcase the problem. Eliminating any unnecessary variables and trying to show the issue as clearly as possible is not exaggerating the problem in any way.

One more time:

Great! Then stop telling others that the showcase of this issue is exaggerated and doesn’t represent actual gameplay.

No, it doesn’t.

You would. I gave you three examples.

We can agree to disagree :wink:

And I’m telling you what you actually wrote and how it sounds. It doesn’t really matter what your intention was.

Just to inform you, the dictionary disagrees with you.

“beyond bounds or the truth”

I quoted what you said in this topic, it’s not just this one word.

No.
I keep telling you what you wrote. There’s a difference.

You can. Think about it…

You think people who agree with something, but aren’t willing to leave commentary on the subject, are biased or intellectually dishonest? I really hope you’re joking.

Oh, so all players who don’t use keyboard misplay the game. Nice :clown_face:

A proper example would be that “Maelstrom suddenly stops dealing damage while the effect is still active”. Then you notice it deals no damage and cast it again, which fixes it (until it stops working again).
Imagine a player complaining that Maelstrom randomly stops dealing damage. They can just cast it again, and that’s the “proper gameplay”, right? :clown_face:

Guess why I keep telling him :wink:

I’d say the range should be based on your screen resolution, so a dynamic range, not a fixed radius.
You’ll avoid issues where the laptop/steamdeck gamer sees minions going off-screen, whereas the 4k screen gamer sees them leash at half screen size. It gives a slight advantage to big screens, but I don’t think it matters.

Minion aggro should be combat-based.
There’s a certain range where enemies realize you’re there, and start attacking you. At that moment, the enemy is put on a list.
Minions start attacking the moment something is on the list. When a target dies, you check if there’s another enemy on the list. If there’s many, pick the closest visible on screen, and set it as the new target for minions. If you run away, teleport out, or in other applicable situations, the monster gets removed from the list.

No need to check each minion.