spires suck
please make it so they only target whilst youre moving; this would let us go afk if something comes up without dying (or take our time to loot)
When you die in a completed Echo you currently dont get rewards since you have to interact with a portal.
Change it that way that you still dont get any (targeted) echo-bonus rewards but at least the base chest.
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Feels good at the end game! Looking forward to new content.
The targeted rewards are mostly a great thing.
Runes and Glyphs are… meh. I feel like I was already getting more than I will reasonably use just from playing and they just aren’t very enticing as rewards. I think part of that is that Runes just don’t feel like a great value proposition to use most of the time, compared to bumping an affix higher.
Set item nodes, I feel like they could just be renamed “Pebbles”. Unique nodes aren’t much better. At first I would get excited to see them, but after hitting them a bunch of times and getting nothing but the absolute bottom of the barrel in set/unique items, they both just feel totally bad and I usually actively avoid them because even the “meh” of a Rune or Glyph node feels better.
This is a well timed thread, as the “monolith wall” has bested me after getting 4 characters to ~80-95, I just cant get motivated anymore for the end-game grind, but what to do about it?
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Huge Web = Great! I do enjoy the ‘huge web’ of monoliths… It feels like a world… it feels like you have options… I think thats good… I think you want players to stay in it for night after night… without resetting it. Maybe you could get the odd node get invaded all of a sudden with an extra boss/reward or you could use a glyph or something to alter a node in some way… I feel like this is the nucleus of a great endgame here!
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Quest Echo Instability Requirements: I think you could reduce the requirement by 3x so that farming uniques or blessings wasnt such an ordeal… I thought it would be fine, but after a few weeks in practice… its too long a grind, its just not fun… it takes me 2-3 nights to get 1 attempt at a final boss… instead id like to get 2-3 attempts per night…
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Targeted Exalteds: End-Game (currently) is really just farming exalted items (the only way to advance your character), so exalted nodes are surely the only longterm goal for a player (once farming rare uniques or blessings is complete). I would like some more purple nodes perhaps… as it feels like a long…long…time between purple rewards on the web (even in exalted)… and perhaps there could be far more unique nodes… but they could be slot targeted too… for example I could find a ‘Unique Bow’ Node… as I recently had to give up on my Marksmen after not finding/gambling the bow she needs after 2 weeks of farming. Maybe some of the other rune/glyph/exp type nodes could be switched out at L100 too, to a paragon type boost, or just some reason to grind through 15 nodes to find a useful one?
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Corruption Slider: This is my #1 Request… I would LOVE a way to ‘choose’ the corruption level… like a T1->T15 slider like in Diablo3… despite all the videos I watch on how easy it is to control corruption… that is not my experience, often my monolith becomes too difficult for me, and I cant even kill Orobyss (especially some of his versions that are harder than others), so I get stuck… Also… I dont want to reset the whole thing just to change the corruption either.
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Spires: If these could a) not target you when stationary (so I can talk to spouse/kids or check my build website for a second) and b) have a longer delay so that stationary casters (disintegrate for example) can kill something before having to move again.
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Variety: Not sure what to do here (I dont envy designers), I would prefer not to get all the way to the end of an echo and have to click a gate, and then go through another 2 minutes of waiting for a mini arena, Id like to be done once I get there, much prefer killing a named mob… but thats probably every MMO player… I dont have any help there, but yes I think catchy named mobs is always more fun… or perhaps some collect 5 items… I dunno just anything
Death Penalties:
After playing quite a few builds, some are god-mode, and some are fragile to the point I had to stop playing them due to the monolith penalties, things get bricked and there is no reward anymore for the nodes… and btw im playing the best builds published on the forums, not trying to make my own… the current penalties for death are cruel imo, and disincentives anyone who’s not ‘pro’. Remember that the players dieing are already having a really difficult time as it is…its taking them a lot longer to finish an echo (many get bricked), and killing a boss is a hell of an achievement if not impossible at times… these are not the players/builds speed-farming end-game content:
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Dieing during an echo - It makes me want to stop playing when it happens, especially if its a unique/purple reward that I really wanted… The worst case is where you die on the end boss/spire/gate for example… you lose the entire run due to the echo resetting, so you have to re-run it again, but this time you have already lost both the instability AND the targeted reward you were after… if you took 1 or the other… i.e. take the instability but leave the targeted reward (or vice versa) I think thats a fair penalty, with some incentive to replay =)
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Dieing after completing an echo - This one hasnt happened to me in ages since I stopped playing stationary casting mages, but still… when you finish the echo objectives, spawn the rewards in town, there is no need to punish them for dieing before the town portal goes off.
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I thank the devs for the update and for my time playing but its not for me to play long term as I dislike corruption endless stacking mechanic in the main gameplay loop.
I left feedback here Some Changes Needed For MoF - #8 by Shrukn - as it stands currently I wont be playing until that changes or not at all
Endless scaling to me removes the entire point of playing an aRPG and makes the game feel like nothing really matters as you can just inflate % numbers to be higher and higher until its impossible.
Defence mechanics other than dodge become useless since you get one shot anyway at certain points, getting a perfect weapon is also a just a passing thing as eventually the enemies have so much HP that killing something a few seconds faster isnt noticeable at all.
This game isnt robust or in the right state to have corruption in mono’s. should of capped it and left arena for endless scaling but sometimes you cant please everyone
I almost quit PoE twice when they released Labyrinth and Betrayal league knowing I would have to deal with that EVERY league but I stayed because the game is too strong in other areas and I can just avoid them long term.
I think if we use the previous iteration of Monolith as a reference, then the current version is an improvement by any comparison.
My main issue though, is that the improvements, aside from the targeted rewards, largely do not move the needle for me in terms of a more enjoyable LE experience.
The biggest issue is that the current monolith iteration still doesn’t change the actual gameplay meta - which is to beeline to the finish to get your reward and engage the web further. Making choices in developing and travesing the web is important, but I feel the key to ARPG should be an enjoyable experience killing monster, playing with my party and not managing the web. This has been discussed else where so this is about as much as I will touch on this point for now.
I also agree with @Shrukn that I don’t think Mono should be endlessly scaled. Right now, both endgame modes in LE are uncapped systems. And this is an issue on 2 counts as I see it: (1) Uncapped systems do push players to lean into minmaxed/optimised builds more so than uncapped systems. I know Reimerh replied to me on this before on Mike’s stream, saying that that (opting for optimised builds) is a natural player response. That is true, but I believe it is an even greater issue for uncapped systems to chase meta builds. 2) I completely agree with @Shrukn again that
Yes. More powerful gears allow you to scale to higher corruptions for a better chance at getting good rewards. But again, the actual gameplay experience is that you never really feel you’re getting more powerful.
The two issues I raised on MoF began as independent issues I thought about. But having reflected on my experience further, they actually both combine to give a very poor gameplay experience (nudging me not to deal with monsters and rush objective + even when I engage monsters, the monsters always feeling “difficult” for me even as I upgrade my gears because I am always motivated to do as high corruption as possible).
As such, can’t say I am a fan of the current system.
2 Likes
I totally agree. The baseline system introduced here is great.
I’m totally against that, it would feel too “videogameish”. I wouldn’t be against better ways to control corruption though.
I agree too.
Overall i think it lacks variety in echo types, missions, and on the general gameplay loop. As i said in an another thread, i think some random (and not guaranteed) events inside echoes would add a lot of diversity : A surprise boss, a special event with special rewards, a new unexpected questline etc.
+1. I really dislike difficulty sliders in ARPGs. Control difficulties through progression systems and varied endgame systems. Not over an UI.
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My single biggest issue is getting roadblocked on the last line of a web and hit a branch with two arenas. I detest the arena so I do MoF to bypass that boring infinite scaling mob machine.
Corruption is misplaced/misused. There lacks a real chase unless those few items are the only thing you are after. Corruption should only be earned after killing the end boss for that timeline, not using the echo of the world.
The echo of the world should have multiple locations (as they are now) within the span to trigger that event once you collected enough corruption, corruption does not reset your web. The echoes of a world should only spawn after completing the timeline, not before, they are revealed with beacons and you SPEND earned corruption on Shade farming, if you choose.
The changes to quest echoes are definitely my unsung hero for the patch but there isn’t an option on the poll so I see no reason to go into detail. A fantastic and much appreciated change.
I’ve completed over 4,000 echoes on patch 8.2. I’m prefacing my post with this to draw a distinction between a new player and a semi-seasoned one. I may be too far removed from the new player experience to agree with some of the problems already mentioned in this thread but I will address them to provide a different perspective.
- Spires
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The issue stems from an inability to afk or validate loot while spires are active. I do not understand how this is fundamentally different from an arena monolith. You’ll die if you afk in an arena monolith the same way you’ll die to the spires. TPing out of an echo does not cause you to lose the rewards so that is always a valid option if something forces you step away. I just don’t see the issue with spires, I’m sorry.
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Spires are one of the few echo objectives that change the feel of an echo. I like spires. I like that they can kill me. The poison pools left from the poison spire can be hard to see on echoes with snow but that’s my only complaint.
- Targeted Rewards
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Sets and uniques are lackluster due to overall power level of items that fall under each category and the quantity never scales which I found strange. Perhaps the nodes would be more sought after if specific item types were added and the quantity increased. Something along the lines of “Rewards 2-3 unique items, at least 1 being a unique dagger”.
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Idols and exalted items are great rewards and generally very exciting to open.
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The vessels seem underutilized given how cool they look in game.
- Modifiers
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I attribute the replay-ability of the monolith system mostly to modifiers. They create a wonderfully dynamic experience that ensures no two echoes are exactly the same. A void horror with glancing blows is not the same as a void horror with frenzy. Different tactics need to be utilized upon engagement and the tacit knowledge players accrue through these battles leads to fulfilling gameplay.
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With that said, this same dynamism often creates a lot of confusion the first dozen hours you experience it. Am I dying because I added 100% increased damage, does my build struggle with this particular shade combination, or have I been playing at a corruption level that is too high and am I just realizing it? Even if you were able to pinpoint the specific cause for your struggles (it’s almost always the combination of modifiers applied) there isn’t an easy way to decrease the difficulty or even reasonably opt out. By the time you realize you’ve made a mistake with your modifier selections it’s too late to change them. I don’t know what the solution looks like as many are prone to potential abuse but a full reset (back to 100 corruption) might be a good place to start.
This type of question is relatively common on Discord.
- Dodge
- Put simply, I can’t think of a single reason why this modifier should exist. If you want to bolster enemy toughness then do so with health, resists, block (still annoying but better than dodge), glancing blows, or anything else. I’m currently playing spellblade and have spent 23 points in passives alone to generate ward on hit. My passive tree doesn’t contain any other notable defensive mechanisms besides ward on hit. Dodge isn’t only decreasing my damage output but it is simultaneously removing a substantial portion of my defense (ward and leech). It’s possible that an increase in available modifiers would dilute the pool enough to prevent multiple instances of dodge from stacking though I still dislike it. If modifiers like dodge exist I would like to see avenues for players to counteract them. For instance, I spec into Cleansed By The Elements within Enchant Weapon when I have multiple Slow/Chill modifiers. It isn’t ideal but it allows me to keep my playstyle somewhat intact with relatively low investment.
- Echo Web Pathing
- The choices offered feel akin to passive point selections for many classes. If you’re playing a cold sorc you’ll pick up the passives that boost cold damage, fire will pick up fire, and so on. It’s not really a choice because there is 1 applicable option and multiple other options that do not pertain to your build. For the echo web, you are frequently offered two or more routes but one of them typically contains a subsequent visible node that does not increase in stability gained. Yes, it’s possible for that path to swing around but there is no point in gambling on it when there is guaranteed progress on the other. This is assuming rewards and modifiers are not a factor in your decision which is the case more often than not. I’d like to see more routes that branch out in parallel alongside the three main paths offered upon reset to increase the number of meaningful decisions that can be made.
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I need something like the spires that scared me to come back. The rework killed them and now they are just another spell effect that makes melee combat visibility terrible and do nothing impactful as far as I can see. Previously an echo with spires was a different experience than without. There is little variability, and with fixed maps and fixed map objectives I very quickly find the monos repetitive.
As a potential source of variability in experience they should be rework. Maybe take them up so they only start appearing at x corruption (1-2 spires can spawn in a spire mission), then more spires at corruption 2x or whatever.
Not that spires are the only thing that could add variability, but they were the only mechanic I saw of this class. If we had more things like this that changed the feel–of the mostly invariant maps and objectives–it would freshen up the gameplay side of things for me.
In ARGs like Inquisitor, you have a lot of personal control over your end-game experience (with plenty of RNG, of course). Developing your Tarot Deck is both part of the grind as well as part of your growth as a player, learning what mods and combinations and rewards come from playing your cards right, in combination with your build and what content you are going up against.
This rework was for sure a huge advance!
I posted a few weeks ago my idea to be able to earn corruption as a global ‘currency’ which can be removed/spent on other monoliths so you arent locked into the same monolith for all time.
Example you ‘earned’ 200 corruption doing Spirits of Fire you can remove that and put it into other monolith and begin at 300. but this doesnt solve the fundamental issue of the endless scaling issue for me - this also solves the issue of people bricking their monolith as they can just remove the corruption to base level or drop it back to say 150 as farming there is probably most optimal
I was miserable playing D3 right before I quit but there was a reason I was doing it - to try and hit Rank1 - which would be the equivalent to pushing arena which is completely acceptable for me because Arena isnt the core game. D3 GR’s were the core game and the fun was completely sucked out as ALL you did was the most efficient thing (playing in groups for XP and gem upgrades) however D3 gave you Legendary Gems to upgrade and use/play with to actually beat this content - LE gives us nothing new at all to use
When Delve released in PoE I pushed the Pathfinder ladder for about 2 weeks until I hit Delve 600, then hit 700 and decided I had enough as every monster was virtually one shotting me at that point and since then never went above 500 on any league - people can say what they want about PoE but you DONT need to play in groups/most efficient xx to achieve your goals as long as that goal isnt being literally #1 at something
LE feels hollow if you decide to settle at a certain corruption because that particular build isnt good enough, that pushes extreme meta builds to the top, Ive min/maxed builds that arent even that good in aRPGs but they can still comfortably clear the whole game
Corruption scaling also seems to be answer to the fact the base monsters arent dangerous enough to begin with, endless scaling comes in when people are crushing the game, theres a few skills than arent even good enough to reliably clear standard empowered monoliths and other skills like Lightning Blast is vastly overtuned
The targetted rewards changed my way to enter the monolith.
Before, I always selected the less dangerous modifiers. Now, I go for rewards and sometimes, I don’t even look at the modifiers. That already led me to some suprises, like huge damage bonuses for enemies, or chance to dodge, endurance, etc. And even now that I experienced that, I still gor for rewards and hardly look at the modifiers.
Unique rewards are very often not worth. I don’t want to always find high level uniques, but I feel they should drop more often. I did not write a list of all I’ve got, but most was low or very low level.
And I still think we could use more mission objectives. Basically, we have the same missions as before. The forges became gates and we now have beacons, but all the rest is identical. I like the idea of an escort mission, but I don’t know what you and the other players think about it. I’d like to have some other things to do.
Overall, I’m very happy with the new system. I spend more time in the monolith now, I’m more happy to play it. For me, it was a very great change, and the web system seems to be a solid foundation for future expansions.
With how the web works, if you continue pushing outwards from where you were when you got enough stability to do the boss then the number of echo runs will already be ~1/2-1/3 of what it would be if you started it from fresh (the centre).
If you’re farming for the perfect blessing then resetting the web will be longer in the short-term but quicker in the long term since corruption also increases the amount of stability monoliths give.
You do know this is a “videogame” don’t you? So feeling like a videogame is a good thing, as against feeling like work or feeling like you’re required to pay to get anything good.
100%… all steps in the right direction… maybe a few missteps along the path but moving forward imho…
I love the system in theory, but once I hit empowered monos and began to understand how to run them efficiently I began to enjoy them less and less.
The main issue is that Echoes encourage you to skip mobs. They feel like running bounties in D3, or any other mechanic that rewards you for skipping 90% mobs. After a while it becomes pure tedium, because you’re not really engaging with the content, you’re skipping it, you’re bypassing it, you’re just “getting it out the way.” In LE this is a huge problem, because Echoes aren’t side content, they’re the primary game mode.
I’m not sure how you’re gonna tweak the system in future, but please, please, PLEASE, make it so you have to kill mobs. That’s the entire point of an ARPG. Not running past them to get to an objective. IMO that’s part of what makes PoE’s gameplay fundamentally better than most other ARPGs despite it’s zoom-zoom nonsense. Because at least in PoE you’re encouraged to full clear maps, and full clearing is always going to be so much more fun and satisfying than skipping everything. Similar thing in D3. The primary game mode is rifts, where you kill virtually everything. Bounties are a small part of the game that you can ignore for the most part.
The other annoyance is the modifiers. These needs a serious rework, because as it stands there’s almost no point playing anything but a DoT build. The easiest solution would be tune down the numbers on these mods, or maybe just dilute the pool with less punishing mods so you can actually follow a path that doesn’t destroy your build with things like crit avoidance and dodge.
Sorry if this feedback seems a bit harsh, but I DO love the game. I think the skills and classes and the combat are all magnificent. Probably the most fun combat I’ve ever had in an ARPG, but that’s exactly why I’m bummed out at how crippling mods are and how it’s just flat out inefficient to actually kill stuff.
Either way, looking forward to future patches!
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Everyone wants a way to move the corruption up or down, there are other ways it could be done, but D3 did it the simplest, you simply move up the difficulty when your character is ready (or dont if you want less reward but faster runs), here is the UI:
Yaa it gets faster (and eventually harder) as you go out for sure, but I know im not the first one to ask for the instability requirement to be more like 300 to clear 3 bosses (rather than 800, which takes me a few nights), this pic here shows the L100 requirement:
Welcome to the forums:
EHG did attempt to solve the skip the mob issue with the kill to discover objectives.
Clearing mobs should be the way to gain stability to advance the questline to the next quest echoes. The idea of stability being that with enemies gone there is no longer a threat and the timeline becomes stable…
The EHG team takes the harsh criticism pretty well as long as it is not vulgar or in violation of the TOS.
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