Feedback on "end game"

Ive played two different characters to level 100, and can go over 300 corruption no problem.

legendary potential combines : absolutely horrible. running temporal sanctum 8 times in a row to get the one stat i want, isnt fun, not to mention, it stalls any character’s ability to progress. If you wont drop 3 and 4 needed LP items, why do i have to run the same boring dungeon unlimited times to try for a single stat upgrade? Absolutely frustrating. Allow people to maybe pick a stat they want? What does that do on a LP1? prevents you from needing to bore yourself to death trying to progress your character.

The question I ask myself is this, what is the need behind ruining the fun of upgrading a character? Low LP drops and extreme rarity for higher LP drops = inability to progress character = not fun.

Does getting an LP4 drop or getting a good combine break anything? Seriously, why is this such an annoying part of the game when its literally all about progression?

It seems as if this is only in the game to destroy the fun of upgrading a character. I cant find any other reason to why this would occur.

If we look at this from the perspective of everyone getting good LP drops and combines, what does that do? Hurt the streamers that play 30 hours a day? (so they cant be the super elite)

It only hurts the normal players that just want to have some progress…


Legendary Crafting is end game, chase content. It is meant to be a grind. It is targetted at hardcore players that enjoy the grind.

If you are already doing 300c+ (the dev’s stated “balance point” in the game) without LP, you’re doing perfectly fine. Yes, it’s long winded, getting good Legendary Crafts. That’s the design. A lot of people love it. Some don’t. I don’t see it changing enough to make the more casually mind-set gamers enjoy it more than they do or at all.

TLDR. Legendary Crafting is a grind by design, not by mistake.


I agree the system could probably be changed at somepoint, but its the good old “risk and reward” system, that we see in many popular ARPGS. You put something on the line, this item could then become 1/50 of the initial worth, or 50x the initial worth. I would have loved to see this being done with currency as in PoE, but respect that EHG tried out a different approach to such system.
I think it works rather fine as is, i wouldn’t wanna massively overhowl it to respect casual players that most likely never get to corruption 300 in the first place.

LE and PoE is a grind party, you grind for the best items to then compete with the hardest content - PoE has the hardest content as we speak, whereas LE still needs some updates to get into that realm.

When the grind is literally 20 of the same dungeon or 10 of the same dungeon when you already have the gear drops, it isnt a grind, its a stall, and its the type of mechanic D4 got completely owned over → Wasting player time too much results in players leaving.

I’d like to hear more detail though about how ether allowing 1 stat to be chosen or, fixing the horrible drop rate on lp3 and 4 somehow makes the game to “easy”. Its not about that, its about allowing progression.

The fact is this, you can not progress on certain builds without getting better LP drops so you can get further into corruption. I believe this is a serious progression issue.

It isnt realisically possible to get an LP4 or 3 in many cases, the percentages for the drop are too low.


quick question does “Ardent Gladiator” = defend current game design at all costs?

I agree, and i believe like D4 its because there isn’t an actual “endgame” other than forever corruoption monoliths… Unlike PoE where you would have to do monoliths corruptions 500-1000 +(just to grind items) to even be able to fight some of the bosses in the game, that gives u some kind of “drive” to grind.

The grind in ARPGS needs to have some sort of a purpose, and right now in both D4 and LE the purpose is not there, but LE said the next 2 patches is gonna come with pinnacle boss systems / endgame activities beyond monoliths. Lets keep our heads up high, D4 is still trying to figure out how to put stats on an item.


How about instead of running through that dungeon we just fight the boss in there. And you make the boss 2-4x tankier or something. Because its honestly a snooze to run past all those trash mobs and look for the exit.
Its fine as a dungeon but as the method for crafting LP weapons Its a snoozefest. Already grindy enough to get the pre-requisites.


Ok, here goes:
LP in itself is designed as a ‘chase’ mechanic. It was initially implemented to raise beginner uniques up a bit so they can turn into useful things despite that.

What we got was a complete system instead which went far further and allowing for long-term item chase. Those are the ‘good’ uniques with any sort of LP as well as 3-4 LP items commonly.

The mechanic is happening beyond the intended progression, hence reaching 300 corruption commonly, this means it’s something which goes beyond and also provides the sole mechanic in the game which allows people to grind for months on end to perfect their one specific outfit towards more and more perfection.

Make it easier and a lot of people which are here because they have always another goal in front will leave. And for those which ‘just want to progress’ it’s simply ‘tough shit… that’s not a progression mechanic in the first place’ and you’ll have to take it like that.

Might change in the future, not the case in the current time though.

No, you’re not even supposed to get all too far into corruption, so it’s your perception simply being the problem.

Yes, by intention. Seems like it does exactly what the system is made for.

Why is it every time i see the ardent gladiator title, the person defends the game completely sidestepping any real creative critique or possible progress enhancing gameplay changes that may make the game more fun?

Seriously, im not the only person mentioning this, its not hard to change, and who does it hurt if somehow lp3 or even 4 became a little more accessible, or, that combines were a little better to deal with.

All in the name of progression, who does this hurt?

Because we know which intentions were beyond the implementations at the time they were done and don’t just see it and start talking about issues for them.

Also it’s an explanation for why it’s there, the premise. That’s the foundation of its existence. If you don’t know that you can’t change things in the first place outside of providing a suggestions out of sheer and utter luck and sidestepping all the problems which have been talked about since years while the whole conversation about the topic advanced to several steps further then this baseline which is presented.

And I’m sure you won’t be the last, though it has no meaning if it’s mentioned or not. 95% of people can be wrong at times despite agreeing. Happens rarely but does.

Mentioned above.

Also the game long-term.

A game needs a proper basic balance (EHG fails at that currently but that’s another topic) to have the current content with the current progression rate aligned. If that’s the case future implementations are even becoming possible to be interesting.

Imagine it like this… we allow people to push even further beyond the expected 300 corruption cutoff point for most builds, what does that mean? Our progression system already ends at 100 at the current state.
Do we need to make content all the way up to 1000 hence to provide something to strife towards when it comes out? What meaning will new itemization options have if your build already utterly demolishes the new content before even playing a single minute in it, just breezing mindlessly through?

That’s why it’s a bad idea.

A game can progress by nerfing things too. Your personal progression is not the end-line for a game, rather it’s something which needs to be planned out heavily. Without proper pacing you can just go and play any game on a creative or sandbox mode, put whatever onto your character and breeze through.
Sure, fun for 30 minutes… or an hour… and then it looses its luster. Welcome to old-school cheat-codes inside games, they caused exactly this and that’s why they began to become harder and harder to actually access until sometimes not even being possible at all nowadays.

There’s a reason behind those things, question them first, read through the myriad of commends about ‘quicker itemization’ ‘faster progression’ ‘quicker respec’ and many many more of the exact same type and see why people are against it, you have the answer presented to you in over 500 cases in the last half year of forum talks alone.

Reasons behind why a decision was made are not good excuses for poor gameplay in the future that it has or will cause.

Go into detail with your comment.

Which ‘poor gameplay’ does it cause currently?

Which ‘poor gameplay’ will it cause if it stays this way?

Create a basis for discussion rather then a generalization without meaning (yet).

Poor gameplay is when things become overly tedious causing players to not like the game anymore.

Playing temporal sanctum 8 times in a row doing the same combine 8 times in a row, after farming said gear, and farming said uniques…I would consider to be very tedious gameplay.

Not being able to progress in the game in a reasonable manner (i didnt say lp3 & 4 drop constantly), which is definitely related directly to the amount of great lP combines you can get, is tedious gameplay.

Reasonable is undefined, but it will be defined by the community.

I understand and appreciate your history lesson on how the game was developed, but it doesn’t matter. The only things that matter in games is for them to be fun, and for people to continuously play them for live games. Player bases are fickle today, much more fickle than the group think early access that definitely led to the current state of the game.

I for one, would like to see this enhanced, many others agree, and my prediction is if the drops or progression or combines in the end game don’t improve, this is going to be an early cycle for most.

I welcome disagreement, but history lessons aren’t as helpful, the community now is mainstream, and COP and trade are new, and drops rates being lowered are new, there have been many changes, and they aren’t all working out the way that i think the community wants.

Nope, Arcade games were designed to be replayable they had to be so that your customer would come back. make a bad game ? the customer wont come back to put coins in.
The idea that there has to be some grind to keep the peasant glued to the screen is one from the early 2000’s or even 90’s era mmo type games where the object of the “game” was to keep the consumer subscribed for as long as possible.

I can play any old arcade game where the 1st level of your character is the max level. does it ever get boring? no. This is by design. If your game is boring once I unlock everything then the design of the game is at fault.

Sure I like upgrading my stats. But eventually the core design of the game has to be interesting enough to engage with. Having tedious requirements to get a decent LP unique is unnecessary.

First the unique has to drop
Second It should probably have good rolls , near the highest adaptive damage or whatever else
Then it needs LP to even be used if your build calls for it.
Then you need to find a perfect Exalted item of the same type that has mods you want and preferably all the mods are minimum t5
Then out of those 4 mods on the item your chances of getting the one you want is a dice roll permanently breaking the unique.
Then you need the key to unlock the area, if you enjoy running this dungeon then you might actually want to keep these instead of using them for LP uniques.
Then you need to slog through one of the most boring pointless areas of the game which is way below your current level trying to find a door that could be on either side of each wall and is also gated behind having to time trivial between zones. (luckily I have shield rush and it makes this area way faster to close my eyes and take a nap through)
Then you have to defeat the trivial boss.
Then you have to finally after all that Try to roll a mod on the item with all the previous pre-requisites.
The dungeon is completely unnecessary.
Some of the pre-requisites are probably unnecessary.
And then we finally come to the part where it might be the mod im trying to get on my unique boots is just health or movespeed. So in the grand scheme of things its not like I’m breaking the game putting on L1 uniques on.

I agree L3/L4 can be rare. But the rest of the system needs some revision because its draining to keep rolling dice in a casino that wastes your time just to find a door. to the end where the slot machine is.

The lowest chance to get the exact outcome you want is happening with 2 LP.
1 LP and 3 LP have higher chances
4 LP guarantees the right outcome.

Now, said progression is getting 1 good affix on a unique… then 2… then 3… then 4.

With this premise we have a 1 in 4 chance to get the right LP 1 item. We’re not talking about the stat as T6 or T7 yet… just the stat. Most uniques provide that in masses if you’re playing CoF since they’re ‘common’ uniques.
MG is wrongly set up and hence there’s an issue, which is an issue with the faction and not the LP system though.

Getting 2 proper affixes on it is already harder, which is to be expected. The system was never intended to go beyond 3 LP for common uniques and at best 1 LP for rare uniques… but through sheer chance player can get more.

Tedious gameplay can only happen when it hinders your progression.
You’re beyond progression.
What does it hinder?

If you want to push your character to the limits you can expect to put unhealthy amounts of time into the game, that’s how it goes with everything in life.

Expecting anything else is solely entitled and unrealistic.

Which brings me back to this:

This is a vast generalization. True at parts but also not the fault of the devs for people to put wrong expectations into the game in the first place.

Or into gaming all across in the first place.
It’s like a rash which has crept up on someone and now denies to go away. Group behavior being detrimental and since it has turned into the majority being seen as ‘the right thing’ by now.

A game is there to have fun. If your fun is solely derived by your progress and not the gameplay itself then you’re doing it wrong
It’s a harsh but simple sentence.

The situation with LP is that the devs provided the community a way to upheave bad uniques, and they gave us a bonus mechanic not needed for progression on top.
Now… you’re here complaining about the bonus! Not the base mechanic of 1-2 LP items dropping in large amounts for low quality uniques and hence allowing you to switch out at times to them as you make your character better… no… the end-line of it.
Your boss basically created a lottery where 25% of people get a one-time payment extra while only needing to apply for it. And you’re now complaining that you’re one of the 75% which were left out.

Was it needed in the first place? No
So why the heck are you complaining that you’re not getting it, it’s 100% of the time a positive and never a negative outcome when it works.

No, it’s the task of the dev to provide those limits, not the community.
The only time those baselines change is for personal challenges not specifically provided by the baseline mechanics.

It’s a false way to expect things and leads to disappointment at nearly all times.

So the mechanics need to be set up in a way to optimize the time investment for people, the longer they play the longer the game lives, right?
So running the equivalent of 2 monoliths + 1 boss which already is less effort for boss uniques then anytime else while also providing a bonus reward on top is the situation for dungeons currently. Sure, non corruption monoliths but instead we get a high baseline of rare enemies, hence a ‘good monolith’.

If you reduce the time needed for item acquisition so people can reliably get the top-tier items at all times which bring them beyond 300 corruptions already then it’s too much, simple and easy.

Yes, especially those coming from D3 hold this notion seemingly. Whiel Path of Exile people are seemingly quite delusional about their respec system… and so on and so forth.
Go into the game while wiping your ‘expectation slate’ clean first, then assess the specific details of it individually if they make sense, then compare it to alternative solutions with the new framework in mind. Don’t switch those around willy-nilly or you talk from the wrong basic premise.

Trough CoF drop-rates are becoming roughly 3 times higher for exalted items and around 6 times higher for uniques… outside boss-uniques which seem to be an oversight.
We have not a single extra piece of content… despite this magnitude of extra provided loot we get people here complaining it’s too slow!.

So the main question is:
When is it not?

Which the answer is:
This game is between PoE and D3 levels of itemization time, leaning more towards the PoE timeframe then D3.
No, we don’t need to shift it, EHG has a market position which is perfect since it takes in those unhappy with either of them and does it well.

MG on the other hand is an access mess and hence causes frustration as it causes you to get less LP items then in beta until a vast time investment. Which is arguably bad as it changes the status quo between both of them a lot.

But the LP system itself with the chance base? That’s absolutely and utterly no issue, it’s actually a great system to provide a item sink for exalted gear.

Kept to be the same with any life-service game nowadays, by design of how they’re set up with server costs and development costs.

The arcade example on the other hand is not in line with a either cheat-codes, creative mode or sandbox modes.

For the majority it does. You nonetheless have obstacles to overcome.

In ARPGs of LE’s style that’s itemization and content. Content is swiftly solved, leaves itemization. The second you solve itemization you’re done with the game after basking in your success for a short while.

That’s why itemization is set up in ways to provide unobtainable goals for any normal person but nonetheless happens with luck or extreme effort.

Unless the variance in the rolls (very rarely) is massive it has no meaning compared to the upside of another affix.

If your build ‘calls’ for LP then you’re already not using a starter build but a advanced one.

For a 1 LP item you need exactly a T5 mod of the type you want on your legendary in the end. That’s a massive upgrade. T6 or T7 of said mod is not relevant but pure chase.

If you run out of keys you’ve done something majorly wrong… like not picking them up.
I heavily recommend picking them up and storing them. You won’t ever run out of them in that case.

One of the most rewarding ones.
But if it’s not fun for you then that’s a personal thing simply. Makes it not bad though.

It’s always on the furthest direction away from the entrance. You’ll realize it after 4-5 runs how to find it in the quickest possible way.

If a boss with unique mechanics is a trivial thing for you you’re playing the wrong genre.

Time sink to make acquisition rate slower and the initial limit to input the effort higher.

I’ll agree the dungeon portion of it is kinda mid. I’d not mind a skip to the boss but I doubt we’d ever get that. At least make the dungeon less… boring? It’s just running through and getting cock blocked by walls.

didnt read too long.

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I defend the game design because I understand the Devs want to make their game. Not your game.

There are certainly design aspects to this game I don’t love. That doesn’t make them wrong.

There are certainly things in this game that are just wrong in the way they could just be implemented much better/smoothly for player experience.

The game and all of it’s systems do not need to appeal to all of it’s players. Would it be nice? Of course. But perfect doesn’t exist, in anything. So I will defend the Devs’ right to build large, in-game systems, how they want to build them because it’s their video game. This notion that “I don’t like something, change it” is dumb. I quite like LP and Legendary Crafting in this game, if I shout at the forums with “It’s perfect, don’t ever change it, I’ll be sad” does that mean they shouldn’t change that system again, ever?


If you’re not willing to put effort into making the point for your argument I can see that the issue at hand doesn’t seem to be important enough for that.

Says all I need to know.

If there’s anything tedious here it’s the bi-weekly thread complaining that a random loot system doesn’t always give you exactly what you want on the timetable that you want it. Eight runs of Sanctum is absolutely nothing, and if that’s all it takes to get you mad about random loot you should pack up right now because you’re gonna be mad for a long time.

It’s absolutely fine that getting the most powerful items in the game is not guaranteed, takes time, and is a grind. Quit throwing yourself into a swimming pool and complaining that you got wet. If you want guaranteed omega shiny items whenever you want them, Diablo exists.

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