Factions balance

Hello there!

I’ve finished analyzing the full faction article / video and I saw that you were looking for some feedback.
Globally, the item faction is insane. I know you’ve been hard working on it, but I didn’t expect something as much as polished and smart designed than this = ) Also, the resonator system is simply brilliant and probably the best ever idea I saw to ensure trading between friends and lift the restriction you mentioned. My only “downside” would be that CoF seems quite broken compared to Merchant Guild, I fear a big difference in players choosing CoF over trading.
Hope it helps a bit, cheers!

I know this is your opinion and I’m not trying to downplay that, I just want to state that I disagree.

Those in the MG will be able to quite easily get what they are looking for if they have the gold, where the CoF players will just have a “better” chance to find it. They CoF players will definitely get more trash but hopefully will eventually find what they are looking for without having to go into trading.

So in my opinion, the MG would make it easier for you to get what you want this giving the CoF these big bonuses at least comes close to evening the playing field.

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2 points:

  • I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Trading is a really powerful item acquisition method full stop. Regardless of whatever bonuses are a part of the faction, just being able to select the item you want in a very specific way is almost certainly the best way to acquire upgrades or put together a starting set for a new build you want to try. All of the droprate stuff in CoF is just there so that if you choose to opt out of trading, it isn’t a miserable experience like it is in PoE.

  • I don’t think they necessarily need to be balanced to be good systems. They don’t directly compete with each other in any real sense. They’re different experiences. Do you like finding and crafting your own items without needing to consider every possible item that might be worth selling? CoF. Do you like being able to search for specific items from a menu or finding items that aren’t what you want but are valuable to trade? MG.

As long as both experiences feel good to play and serve the needs of their respective audiences, I don’t think it helps that much to compare them. The whole reason to split them in the first place is so that trade doesn’t needlessly affect drop rates for people who don’t want to trade.

PoE SSF doesn’t suck because it’s not as good as trading. It sucks because it’s so bad on it’s own that you can’t expect to see half the content. It despite the game having many systems that seem designed for SSF, the balance is so out of whack to keep the trading economy stable that all of those cool systems are basically pointless. As long as each system is “good enough” at creating good pacing, I’m not that worried about direct comparisons between them.

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How so? Your comment doesn’t make it clear which one you think is “better”. Broken in a good way or a bad way?

TBH, I’m not sure if he means MG is better or worse…

Yes, the deterministic nature of trade does make getting specific things much simpler/easier. But if it were tuned such that you spent X hours grinding favour to buy/sell 1 item when CoF would have a high chance of something similar dropping in Y hours (where X>>Y, obviously), that balances the deterministic nature of trade with the random nature of CoF.

They do. If trade is so easy/cheap that you can get the BiS items you want in a significantly shorter time than the devs want, then that is clearly bad for the game. Conversely, if the cost of trade is balanced such that it takes days/weeks/months of grinding to be able to afford the favour cost of 1 item, that’s clearly not a good point either as very few people would be able to use the trade system it’d likely be a waste of resources designing & implementing it.

Kinda yes, but also kinda no. If one is so clearly better/faster at getting the stuff you want, that naturally creates a drag towards using it over the other one. Whereas if they’re both roughly balanced such that there isn’t a material disparity in ease of acquisition of stuffs, then it’s more down to personal taste as you describe.

But, there’s really no objective way to balance them. You really can’t gauge ‘time to acquire desired item’, since you can’t control how frequently desired items will be put up for sale.

I think you previous comment is the best – that Merchant’s Guild is the sure thing. An item comes up for sale, if you have the $$$, it’s yours. CoF is all based on rng, granted, more inspired rng than we’ve had previously, but still rng. It will be interesting to see if it makes play more or less enjoyable.

You can 'cause there’s the time it takes to get the favour to buy it. It’s as close as you can get given the vast number of variables at play.

Yeah, I’m just glad that someone has been able to come up with a way that gives both sides of the trade/no-trade argument what they want without fucking the other side over an ideological barrel because they are too wedded to a >20 year old game. I really hope it works & goes well.

Same… CoF has a lot more than I thought it would – I was thinking it would just be a boring ‘each level raises item drop #s by X%’

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Yeah, it’s almost like they’ve been thinking & talking about this amongst themselves for a few years…

If that was the case, I would expect "each level raises item drop #s by X%’ even more. Over-thinking leads to inaction, most of the time.

Again, this is the biggest misconception leading to how constrained MG is. Just because trade is available does not mean a supply of what you want is necessarily available.

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I believe after a few days 80% of all uniques in the game will saturate the trade economy. A few will have value such as Last Steps/Wings of Argentus solely so people dont waste time farming those timelines. Same with Vessel of Strife will be very expensive

But this also leads to people taking advantage of the economy, if there is almost nil Last Steps for sale you can just farm them and sell them for a high markup which is way more interesting to me than boring SSF

Trade for me other than getting core items is kind of pointless. Gold is just play fake resource you buy stash tabs with or dont spend it in Lightless as you never go there and I cant remember any other use it has

I believe after a few days 80% of all uniques in the game will saturate the trade economy.

I’m sure it depends on how easy it is it add new uniques you find to the market. If there’s a greater limiter like a specific amount of items a day, or anything like that, there’s a chance that there will be a lack of middle-of-the-road uniques while early uniques are rampantly available, and super rare uniques are somewhat available but at an absurd price.

Again, it all depends on what sort of limitations and/or freedoms are available from the get-go when choosing MG.

A few will have value such as Last Steps/Wings of Argentus solely so people dont waste time farming those timelines.

Ironically if those items are priced highly and the demand is enough, it would actually force people to farm it more since there wouldn’t be enough supply to keep up, thus meaning CoF has a higher chance of success since both would have to farm it and they’d have better odds. It also depends on how many players join and stick through the game cycles, since if there’s only a few thousand active players at any one given day, the items available to buy will be very limiting.

MG may be the best choice early on during 1.0 but depending on player-count moving into the future, CoF may take an absolute advantage there.

But this also leads to people taking advantage of the economy, if there is almost nil Last Steps for sale you can just farm them and sell them for a high markup which is way more interesting to me than boring SSF

Fair. It all depends on the freedom of trade and what sort of playstyle you’re looking for. I’m sort of in the middle. I like the idea of both, and I’m usually a solo player, but I do like being able to profit off any and all unique drops, even if it’s not usable by me.

Gold is just play fake resource you buy stash tabs with or dont spend it in Lightless as you never go there and I cant remember any other use it has

Isn’t that nearly the case in all aRPGs? Probably PoE is the only outlier and it’s because their currency isn’t gold but actual crafting supplies. It would be like if LE’s currency wasn’t gold but our affix shards and glyphs.

Gold is tricky to design since the actual power comes from items and gear, not gold. Making an game too reliant on it’s economy and marketplace, making gold the most valuable resource, can be both helpful and harmful, depending on the end-goal. EHG’s goal has always been to make self-find the way to get the best gear, meaning that the use of gold moving forward will always be limited in function. Having a dungeon pre-1.0 that lets you gamble gold for raw gear is already a great leg-up, I’d say.

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Don’t get me wrong, I understand your point here. The intent of my statement was that the vast majority of what ppl will be looking for will be available in the MG within a “reasonable” amount of time, although some may be very expensive and others may be very expensive and a long wait.

I know the intent of EHG is to be more restrained to meet what you are saying, but I believe that eventually the vast majority as I said “will” be available. I don’t see how it can be prevented. You may not get that 4LP Wings or Argentus, but you will be able to get it with “some” LP.

Baseline uniques, yes.But with 1/2/3/4 LP? What about (almost more importantly) the exalteds with good affixes that are necessary for legendaries? And how long will it take people to get to the required rank to be able to sell the uniques with LP?

I played one league in Path Of exile as SSF and all other in trade and the difference in power progression is gigantic!

In SSF could I have doubled my DPS if a certain unique dropped but it never did even not after several weeks, in trade could I buy it for 10 chaos->like 15 minutes of farming maps.

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Oh I should have been more precise. I don’t think they need to be balanced against each other. They should be balanced in the sense that they should feel good to play and align with the dev’s goals for the pace at which you acquire items. Yeah, if people are getting BiS after like a day then that’s probably not achieving the goals they want.

I think it depends. If you’re really motivated to just get loot as fast as possible, then you’re probably going to pick the one that gives you loot faster even if there’s only a small difference. On the other hand, some people just like the experience of one loot acquisition method vs the other. I personally think trading ruins the experience of finding your own drops because it flattens all of your drops into value that can be exchanged. Some people like trading for the control it provides them and the excitement of finding something super valuable to trade.

Going back to the PoE example: My problem with trade vs SSF isn’t that trade gets things faster, it’s that the game almost feels pointless to play on SSF. You aren’t just not going to find BiS fast, you’re probably not even going to be able to find core components of any build that isn’t a basic league starter without interesting item effects. Not only that, because most endgame content is gated by rare, consumable items, you can’t even expect to see most content in the game if you don’t trade for those items. The devs basically don’t want you to be able to play the game at all if you aren’t engaging with trading.

As long as one of the factions isn’t THAT gimped, I think people should be happy to pick the one that’s more their style.

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I agree with you there, although in PoE many people play SSF because of the challenge, just like many play hardcore for the same reason.
However, there is a crucial difference in PoE trade and what LE is proposing:
-in PoE you can just pick up every single thing and place them all for sale where the only limit is your premium stash space.
-In LE it seems like you won’t be able to do that. You’ll need to grind to gain favor to be able to sell stuff, so you’ll be much more picky about what you put up for sale.

That basically means that unlike PoE, where the market is positively flooded with a bunch of crappy items that no one will ever buy during the whole season, in LE items listed are much more likely to be more valuable, not to mention that there will likely be a total amount of items around much smaller than if they were to place no restrictions.

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Technically, but is that true in practice? I haven’t played in a while now, but by the time I stopped, most gear you could find on the ground was such trash that most people didin’t even bother picking things up unless they were really good bases or currency.

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Just look at the PoE trade and search for useless crap. There’s lots and lots for sale, many for just alch or alters and even then it won’t ever sell. There are literally thousands of crap items for sale every season.

But you just filter those out. If nobody is even considering buying them, they don’t really change anything about the market for the items people do want.