I mean the forge. I gave feedback in 1.0 already and I suppose this simply hasn’t been a priority so far, but the extreme ranges of forging potential cost can feel really bad.
I just found a potential bomb item (Eternal Gauntlets w/ t7 Fortification and max t6 Endu Threshold) but only 33 potential. 3 crafts later that was gone, despite 2 of those using a Glyph of Hope (from zero to one each). One craft shy of t3 experimental armor/dot mitigation…
I don’t really have a solution right now that doesn’t increase minimum potential cost, but please think of something for 1.2.
The problem I see is this really reduces the joy of finding a big exalted in the first place. It HAS to survive the forge to be of actual use.
And in that same vein, exalteds are still heavily overpriced in prophecies. We had adressed that as well, but it’s fine if it wasn’t a prio for 1.1 either. Or is there a disagreement? Hard to imagine for me.
True, absolutely agreed… albeit they’re also a integral part of the optimization aspect for gear.
The progression rate for obtaining gear needs definitely some work still, weighting for higher affix tiers in high corruptions should be slightly raised as the upper level of drops is… plainly spoken ridiculous.
Overall base exalted drop-rate higher but the CoF bonus a bit less, so it gets a slight increase allowing gearing to be a little quicker in empowered monoliths but also reign in the ‘insane’ upper aspects a bit.
Obviously this depends on the plans and overall drop-rate increases which are planned with the next cycles, could be a self-solving situation, but overall for the small tier-ranges we have (I would definitely enjoy more to allow better tailoring for drop-rates) the chance to obtain a well-rolled exalted item with a rare exalted mod and getting it also in shape to be able to be used properly (no ‘dead’ affixes for the build) is quite the chore, more then PoE top-tier gear in comparison even.
Simply doesn’t fit the narrative of LE being in-between D3 and PoE there.
Agreed, ‘a’ solution of some sort would be nice, and also very impactful.
Or be easier to obtain as a base. Either/or, actually… the obtaining of the base is probably the better solution as it adjusts the scarcity in MG as well, making the listings seem less ‘empty’ despite needing several crafts still.
Yeah, can happen, and I can have a meteorite hit my head in the next minute…
…
…nope, didn’t happen
But seriously, it’s just a very unlikely situation. When going with RNG then you take the point of having a 50% chance of achieving it and balancing according to it. The 50% point is just a bit off currently, so it needs some work.
It’s definitely not the highest priority (content quantity is still) but it’s definitely in the upper area of the overall list.
I have a different take on this than you do. Namely that gear progression in LE isn’t meant to be somewhere in between D3 and PoE as a whole.
Instead what we have is that getting early/mid-gear (the gear that gets your build working and lets you get to monos) is as easy to get as in D3 and the BiS gear is almost as hard to get as in PoE.
Not really. I’ve had that happen and I’m not even a heavy crafter. In fact, I craft sparingly overall. With glyphs of hope and critical successes I’ve successfully upgraded a blue item with about 20FP to T20.
Granted, it’s rare, but not as rare as you make it to be.
Outside of glyph of hope and Crafting crits FP consumption is very lenient right now. The system rolls twice and takes the lower value.
So the avg cost is always in the lower end.
I don’t think there is anything of. This is just a case of people noticing, remembering and complaining about the bad outcomes more. While they tend to forget all the dozens of good and neutral outcomes.
No it is not that rare. Between low FP consumption rolls, glyphs of hope procs and critical crafting success these instances are decently common.
Thereis also a moderate amount of player skill involved in making the right decisions.
When you want to take and item from T5 to T20 or generally if you want to maximize the effective use of you should always craft the lowest tier affixes, because they have lower FP costs. This gives you more craft attempts and thus more chances for a crit or glyph of hope proc.
When that lucky crit then also increases a T4 to T5 affix while you are crafting a T1 affix it is a much better use of FP.
I see so many people crafting one Stat after the other. This is OK if you have one very very important Stat and you don’t care about getting all the affixes raised, but it is very inefficient.
You ideally want to bounce around always crafting the lowest affix that is on the itm currently.
Yeah, true, but it’s not quite the situation which is the issue. Raising affixes is the least of your worry when you’re past the ‘rare stage’. It’s getting the right affixes on the item.
The issue arises when it’s about handling exalted items, those are decently rare to acquire with the combination of the right affix + base (unless it’s a common affix, then it works out after a while) but you generally don’t have 2… 3… 5 tries available for them. You’ll find a T7 with a rare affix on the right base every 100 hours maybe if you’re grinding hard? Which at least is the case with baseline drops, not CoF.
So it can easily lead to a situation where even potential upgrades are extremely rare, whcih is a difference to PoE and D3 both. In D3… well… it’s darn easy to get your gear anyway. In PoE you acquire the currency and - given you know what you do - can actively craft items which are close to mirror-tier for most common affix combinations after 1k hours of farming. Hence getting a top-tier item after 100 hours is quite likely unlike in LE.
If we want to compare those specific types of items we have ‘mirror-tier’ and by now above that ‘god-tier’ for harsh crafts which are extremely unlikely. ‘god-tier’ would be tripple T7 or even quadruple T7. ‘Mirror-tier’ is a T7 rare affix with a sealed affix at I would say at least T3 on the side as well.
In comparison in LE we can simply achieve lower end gear a lot easier then PoE’s comparison but when we wanna go beyond it starts to shift gradually until it flips over completely.
Have you thought about this or was this just a reflex? Sounds like a broad statement that’s hard to disagree with but also besides my point.
The point is to shift the emphasis on the item drop process and away from the forge. If you win the drop lottery, you shouldn’t lose it all again in the forge. I don’t think the forge was intended as a vaal orb. I see it as a REfining not a DEfining object. But as is, it’s a vetting process for every exalt, no matter how good it rolled.
And this isn’t outweighed by the times you get lucky in the forge. It’s impossible to craft a bad item into a good item for it needs a relevant exalted affix first. So you can’t win in the forge, only lose and that feels bad.
It is true though, sometimes you get a streak of lucky rolls & sometimes you get a streak of unlucky rolls. The bad ones feel worse & stick in your memory more so you perceive things as being worse than they are.
It’s not a vaal orb, it is, as you say, refining the drop.
You can “win in the forge”, sometimes you get a streak of glyph procs or low fp rolls & you can significantly improve the item, but they are less rare than the streak of bad rolls dues to the many things working in our favour to lessen the fp cost of forging (glyph of hope, hidden additional rolls, critical successes).
Which is why you use mechanics to make sure the streak of extremely unlucky rolls can’t happen, this is the downside of any RNG, it makes it so extreme lack of luck is detrimental.
Also outside of that you count on the law of large numbers, just because ‘some’ have good luck doesn’t mean it’s normal. It’s a gambling fallacy line otherwise. You generally use the 50% chance situation by using a binominal distribution formula. EHG has the exact chances for each base-type drop as well as the affix rolls available. You combine them into that formula to achieve the probability for it to actually happen in reality. For the chance you use - as mentioned - at least the 50% chance. More commonly is a 60% used to favor the user lightly.
Then you adjust the relevant rates (in our case drop-rates for example) accordingly to ensure that the overall result will stay the same for everyone.
Yes, you’ll always have outliers, actually… being an outlier is the norm… but the chance of being a extreme outlier is miniscule.
And for those extreme outliers you then use a mechanical stop-gap measure to either have a hard-coded cut-off line or layered RNG checks to ensure that you’re not getting too far away from the baseline.
So no, ‘luck or not luck’ is not even a discussion. It’s hard cold math simply which has to be used for such situations, that’s how proper balancing is handled on the backend for complex systems. And diablo-clone affix-systems falls specifically into this category.
My friend, don’t we know each other by now?
We’re both posting for months here and I know that you hardly play beyond 80. Don’t you remember I play mostly high corruption?
Your statements (which are all: “no it’s the opposite”) are all wrong from an endgame pov. There is nothing to win in the forge because you can’t input a non-t7 item and get a t7 item. I also wouldn’t want that but due to this you can only lose for you put in t7s and they either get vetted or not. No joy involved, believe me.
You may be right for the game before lvl 80, where you pick up blue or yellows and improve them beyond a statistical average.
You realize that most systems have that in place in general?
It’s a mandatory aspect of too many RNG layers in coaction which each other since the chance of extreme outliers becomes higher as the extremes becomes more… well… extreme.
Also it depends on how those mechanics are done, they’re not inherently bad, often too severe though and badly implemented. A simple amplitude cut-off is good enough, enforcing a maximum number of ‘bad luck’ happenings before it starts to re-roll until it doesn’t happen.
To even it out you can for example even internally save the magnitude of negative rolls which would’ve occured and apply it as a overall penalty which wanes over time. You as a user don’t even realize it happening as it does allow for bad luck and great luck but nonetheless starts to reign it in when it becomes unreasonable.
Those mechanics are solely meant to not cause someone to have a negative lottery win or concurrent lasting positive lottery wins. The first one causes people to quit, period. It’s frustrating and you have no control, no control means it’s not worth the effort because you have no way to affect it, that leads to a loss of motivation. It’s a counter to what a game should provide, it’s pure gambling basically and that’s not optimal when you’re on the loosing side simply said.
There’s myriads of different ways to adjust those systems, some are shoved into your face and you feel something being ‘off’ while others make it seem like all’s utterly normal even under scrutiny. Obviously you want the second… because if you don’t even realize it’s there it’s of no meaning to you commonly.
Also the effect of those mechanics wouldn’t happen anywhere else then when the more extreme cases start to happen, those are unlikely to exist during progression, those happen when people input 200+ hours into a single character beyond level 100, when the actual grind is massive, when outliers from RNG are not a ‘eh’ situation but something which entirely negates any meaning at all. Without being affected by it it’s easy to say ‘nah, all’s fine!’. It doesn’t affect you after all, it affects those which do that stuff and they have a valid point to bring it up.
The only way to prevent bad luck outliers is a pity system. Or in other words, after x attempts you’re guaranteed to succeed. And, personally, I find that a horrible solution (and one that can always be exploited to a greater or smaller extent).
So, like I said, basically a guarantee of success after x tries.
What’s the difference between bad luck streaks in RNG and bad luck streaks in slamming legendaries? Or bad luck streaks in boss drops? Should they also get a cutoff so you’re guaranteed to get what you want after x tries?
Nope, that’s not true.
It lucks imagination to a vast degree even.
As an example we’ll take a system which has a simple ‘100’ as the middle outcome.
Now you ad a counter in the background which keeps check of positive or negative outcomes. If the outcome is ‘97’ it adds a ‘3’ to it. If the outcome is ‘120’ is reduces ‘20’ from it.
So as an example with ‘104’, ‘83’, ‘99’ and ‘132’ we have a tally-counter of ‘-18’ at the end.
Now, the next step is how to use that tally counter there. If it goes beyond a certain point either into the positive or negative then it starts to sliiiiightly adjust rolls into the opposite direction to get the counter closer to ‘0’ again. The further away from ‘0’ the stronger it affects the outcomes. A range for each increment.
So for example 0-250 adjusts the outcome by ‘1’, 250-750 by ‘2’, 750-1500 by ‘3’ and so on and so forth.
This means neither positive nor negative outcomes are extremely affected as the further you go from the ‘equilibrium’ state the harder it is to get into the next ‘stage’ of it.
This is called a equilibrium system.
No guarantees anytime. If you want to take it a step further you let that system only affect things occasionally as well, with a separate counter for that counter to decide if it should happen, once again increasing in increments to raise/lower the chance according to how often it happened.
After layer 2 you start to be unable to keep track anyway since you can never know if the effects happened or not and how far your tallies are in any direction, especially if they take both drops and crafts into account to hide the changes even further.
Wouldn’t even be mandatorily in the case I mentioned. Mostly is though, agreed there.
It can simply raise up the outcome by a degree as well, so instead of 3 FP you’ll suddenly use only 2 FP or 1 FP… or it increases the chance for a rare affix as an outcome. Different options in all directions there.
Thinking about it, I would cap crafting costs per step at 10 fp. That item I talked about had 33, so at least 4 steps, those would have sufficed to get at least one fundamental step further, with 4 more steps possible beyond that, I got robbed with only 3 steps.
It is truly rare to find double exalted on an ideal base with a top2 t7 affix. The forge behind that should not be that important in relation to the drop itself.
If they reduced the range, I’m sure they would also reduce the FP amount across the board.
I’m pretty sure the whole point is that you can be unlucky and you can only get a couple of tries or you can be lucky and get limitless tries (in theory).
Mostly, it’s about how much RNG they want in the game. You (and Kulze) clearly want less in this regard, some think it’s fine and the devs also think it’s fine, since it’s been a while since they changed this.
And, more importantly, this mostly just affects when you’re trying to get BiS gear. Which is where the RNG curve goes way up.
It works like the new ward retention curve: the far left side (low gear) is easy, the far right side (BiS) is exponentially harder.
Now, I’m not saying you don’t have a right to complaint or to feel frustrated, but ultimately I don’t think it’s a “The way it is now is wrong and needs to change” but rather a “I don’t like the way it is now and I’d like it to change”.
Ultimately it’s up to the devs to define where they place the RNG line according to their design, but feedback like yours (and others’) can make them shift that line over time.
It starts out when you try to make any sort of item with a single T7 rare affix. You won’t get them in the first place outside of sheer very high luck… especially so if you directly use it instead of crafting it into a legendary because you need to roll the base-lottery as well.
Which is why I’m saying that the curve needs to be at least a little bit straightened out, the exponential increase is more severe then what PoE has, and in a vast manner as well.
Yeah, we don’t have the content for it right now to necessitate it, and it could self-solve over time simply… but it stays a bit of a problem for people which want to invest large amounts of time into a single character, there’s a good chunk of those types out there after all. I’m the multi-character group instead but I understand the reasoning behind it fully.
As for RNG ranges… yeah, absolutely, dev’s choice! But there’s still cut-offs for when something is reasonable or not. Like the D4 shaco situation, 50k+ hours is silly… and top-tier gear in LE becomes also kinda silly, especially given how vast of a range we have beyond that as a possibility, up to the degree that you can’t expect a single one to drop even when playing your whole lifetime for the perfected ones.
Unless you’re searching for a rare T7 affix, not really. Getting a +4 level gear is already going into great gear/BiS territory. For mid-gear you simply make a T7 int + T5 +level of whichever base. And those are a dime a dozen.
It’s only when you’re starting to hunt for base+T7 affix, or base +T7 rare affix that it’s harder to find.
I mean… yeah… that’s what I wrote
And yeah, that’s ‘very good gear’.
With CoF we have access to T7+T6 equipment though as well as double T7 equipment.
Also we need to differentiate there of what the actual outcome should be. A T7 with 3 T5 is… a menace to craft, 4-5 tries? Easily a possibility and given that we need the right base on top we’ll be able to expect 500+ hours to go into that endeavor alone.
Then we still have T7 + 3T5 + sealed as the next step.
T7 + T6 + 2T5… +sealed as the next.
Double T7, + sealed
Theoretically more beyond which is already a pipedream to even see.
The theoretical best item in the game possibly made is a 3T7 + T5 + sealed T4 item. To achieve that we would need a time-investment which is similar to hundreds of the most expensive possible absolute perfect items in Path of Exile, hence those which don’t need 5000 divines… but 200k divines to make.
LE has literally items which are an equivalent of 100+ million divines in Path of Exile for the topic of actual possible time investment, and that’s a disparity there.
GGG made their system in mind that it’s unrealistic to achieve god-tier items… but it’s possible and some individuals (with help or by playing 5+ years doing those things already) or usually some groups tackle those things and make then even happen. In LE the whole playerbase put together could not achieve that since the acquisition rate through drops is the limiting factor and not - unlike in PoE - the crafting materials needed. It’s a hard limit on chance simply.
