I’ve already pointed this out several times, but will reiterate once more.
You can not make an encounter that is hard, and does not require both Traversal and Evade skills, when players have such an option.
Imagine you are designing a fight that is baseline equivalent to fighting Lagon on a non-broken build at 800 corruption while the boss is Enraged. With only one option to get out of harm’s way, you need to think twice before using movement skill to avoid Circle, or Eye Lightning, because you now have a possibility to get trapped in the corner by his Eye Beam. The second movement option will make it a lot easier to avoid both mechanics at the same time.
If you make a fight with multiple mechanics that have to be avoided, and it is just right in terms of difficulty with only Evade skill, adding Traversal skill might make it trivial. If you then up the difficulty, the fight will become impossible without both Traversal and Evade.
The players will always choose the most optimal option, and for bosses it is almost guaranteed to be to take a traversal skill. Then top-level players/streamers will complain about “bosses too easy”, so you will be forced to adjust the difficulty of current fights or make future bosses require both.
“You will regret this, Pakicetus, the environment will force you to adapt.”
That is the issue with the evade roll ability. It doesnt require decision or sacrifice. Its brainless and will be spammed all the time just to move around now. All classes will have it with no planning or investment in it. A generic feature that the current game doesn’t require.
The Devs are saying they want to to design difficult fights that don’t require choosing a traversal ability, so the solution is to give everyone a free traversal ability? I for one don’t look forward to hitting the space bar incessantly.
Extreme mobility decreases the importance of positioning and planning. If you end up out of place, so what, you can dash around at will on quick cool downs. It dilutes strategy (“do I invest in lunge or not?”) and dilutes tactics (“no need to think ahead about the boss’s pattern, I can zip around with ease”).
The effect this will most likely have is not the one you stated but that you’ll be using evade for getting out of area attacks/dense mob packs and using traversal skills (or not, your choice) to navigate the map.
So evade is more a defensive tool than a traversal one.
From the information provided, the cd is crazy low and scales with movement speed, so i as an actual player would use it inbetween traversal skills while its on cd and turn the game into a poe variant. I have to emphasize players have movement speed…
Also on another part of it, this is a scaled increase on movement, so faster classes will gain more than slower ones (acolyte will get a little boost while rogue will get a lot), and ranged also benefit more. This is only making the already existing gaps wider.
That’s not correct. Try to play Games like Bastion or Hades, and then directly compare it with Diablo 4 or Grim Dawn. Than you can clearly tell the difference and it’s not anything close to an actual ‘souls-like’ at all.
People who dislike dodge-rolls always overstate how it effects ARPG’s in a negative way, in reality this stuff is a nice thing to have to make combat, positioning and mobility a bit more dynamic so you aren’t stuck onto clunky movement (or sacrifice a skillslot for it) while still allowing the basic principle of facetaking-builds or traditional ARPG Gameplay. And it still can feel good / be a nice addition outside of being build around. (And nah it doesn’t makes game too easy neither. Devs might need to look over balancing a bit but again, it’s an nice addition and not an geniune replacement).
Maybe in the ‘future’ more bosses will more telegraphed with the dodge-ability in mind, we’ll see, but even THEN it won’t be closely the level of other Games like Hades or Bastion - or Souls where every single element is build around a combat/movement with dodging in mind. (Not to mention that Boss-Design should be an entirely different debate… as i said above, you can factually do an traditional arpg with having dodge-roll as an nice addition… if you don’t consider Diablo 4 atleast Grim Dawn is one of the most traditional ARPG’s right now on the market)…
Also a basic Dodge-Roll as a separate Skill used in the Skillslots. What’s next? Basic-Movement via Leftclick should also be considered a skill and be placed in one of the 5 available skillslots. Again people overstate the actual significance of Dodge-Roll. It’s significant enough to make mobility&combat a bit more dynamic, it’s not closely enough to be on a level of actual traversing skills.
Which is by the way a Reason why i’ve to disagree with most people here in this topic.
If you geniunly compare a Game like Hades… a game which ACTUALLY is build around dodging from the ground up… versus an traditional ARPG’s which have this as an nice addition, than i’m sorry, than i don’t know how i should keep the conversation about it with you (and some others)… because you should be able to tell clearly the difference if you actually played both games. They aren’t alike at all…
Man, and i was wondering why i don’t have the motivation to visit the forum as regularly… (was more of a lurker anyway but even that have become much rarer to just look into what’s new) always with nonsense like this.
@EHG_Mike
Nice to know. Can’t wait to give it a try.
Actually, it does. If you spam your Evade all the time just to move around because you want to play POE instead of Last Epoch, you will be sacrificing your actual traversal speed for the sake of perceived traversal speed.
It’s truly astounding that Mike can lay everything out, clearly and explicitly explain why you’re not correct, and y’all still just shove your fingers in your ears, misrepresent absolutely everything, and go LALALALALA CAN’T HEAR YOU EVERYBODY GETS TRAVERSAL ABILITY IT SHOULD JUST BE A TRAVERSAL SKILL SLOT.
Bro, you are the 2nd person in a row confusing what I’ve said. The original statement was:
In greater detail: if Evade is in the game, the design of the game will shift towards (maybe not instantly, but over time, I probably should’ve clarified that in the original post, to accommodate the increased mobility options), to something that is closer to [Hades/Soluslike/V Rising], not become one, but shift towards one, which means will resemble these games more, and resemble, for example, Diablo 2 less.
Grim Dawn has had evade for a few years now and it’s far from resembling one. Same for D4.
Having mechanical fights != souls-like.
I would say that, if anything, having evade is more likely to move the game towards vampire survivors/bullet hell territory than souls-like. Although neither has to happen.
They also have additional movements skills? If yes, then maybe adding Evade won’t be that big of an issue. We just have to hope that the developers remember their initial intention and not design fights around the super optimal maximum mobility builds run by players with Korean Starcraft APM.
Yes, lots of them. They not only had a few base ones (not many), but they added a bunch of them (6, I think?) with the Forgotten Gods expansion, that you could add to any character.
I find this unlikely to happen. There are plenty of builds that don’t use traversal skills and they deal with bosses just fine. So clearly traversal skills haven’t been a focus point for boss design. Evade isn’t likely to change that.
You don’t need to use traversal for bosses. You just need to know the mechanics and move out of the way (often with a long windup). Some builds just handle it easier with it.
That’s because Mike has said before that the only thing they could guarantee was that the player could move & do damage. They couldn’t assume that a build had a movement skill so they designed the boss fights with this in mind. With the evade/roll/whatever they can assume that the player has this available as well so they can design boss fights with it in mind.
Yes, they can. But, personally, I think that having an evade is more likely to shift a game towards bullet hell territory than souls-like.
Also, according to Mike, evade is only slightly better than walking. Which means the range it has is limited. So in practical terms it doesn’t really change anything regarding boss design other than allowing you to position slightly better.
And lastly, you can’t really design around it because some people will have a 1s cooldown on it and others will have a 4s cooldown.
This is not even mentioning possible interactions with uniques/etc which are an unknown at this point.
So yes, everyone will have evade. But not every character’s evade will be the same.
From the information available so far, I feel like evade will have a very minimal impact on the gameplay.
The CT program (from the outside) appears to be a corrupt collection of streamers and website owners (based on 1.0 launch), so you might as well lock it in.
Well, I’m very happy to report that is not the case at all. The vast majority do not fall into those categories at all. It has people from a very diverse gaming background.
If that’s what it looks like then you’re either new here or missed the 2 stages of the CT. It was first started with a relatively small number of handpicked players to test the Rogue pre-0.8, then massively expanded for multiplayer testing. So the number of “streamers and website owners” in the program is a tiny fraction of a %. If you were talking about the first tranche then you’d be closer to the mark on your numbers, but saying that they are corrupt just makes you sound bitter that you’re not one of them.
Then why did you call them corrupt, which they aren’t, as well as ignore the vast majority of the rest of the CTs? While I don’t know the sizes of the two populations, I’d be surprised if the “streamers and website owners” group is more than 1% of the total, if not closer to 0.1%.
But hey, what do I know? I’m just a soulless coroprate shill white knight gatekeeping everything to keep LE from becoming a cookie cutter auto clicker that shits out the best possible gear with gay abandon better gaem.
(November 2023 as of Patch 1.2.0.0)