Eternal Legends Update

With the new update comes a lot of things. While all of them deserve a place of mention I’m going to focus on 3 things. 1 good, 1 bad and 1 that isn’t being addressed but should have been.

So the good thing. Spires now don’t fire at player unless they are in combat. Thank you for finally listening. It wasn’t the removal of the spires but as long as it allows me time to breath and look at item drops as well as walking a bit back to a safe place if I need to leave the computer for a minute or two. I can’t express how good this is for the game.

The bad. Well, it’s less of a bad change but rather a bad system that changed to continue being bad. Yes, I’m talking about the crafting!

As I’ve said many times before, crafting has multiple stages. Leveling crafting, early endgame, mid endgame and late endgame.

For leveling crafting it’s non existant. It’s generally not worth crafting during the leveling process, this is a big mistake. The reason why it’s not worth it is simple, it costs a lot of shards that are otherwise necessary later on and items don’t last very long during leveling. Leveling will be much more enjoyable if crafting is to be taken seriously right from the begining.

How do we address early game crafting? Well, a simple solution would be by introducing something like a special rune of breaking which will guarantee to give the players all runes they spent on crafting an item so long as the item is bellow level 50. That way they just need to break one item and reforge a new one as they go and not waste their early game shards.

Then we come to the main portion of the game which is the endgame. Now, as I’ve said time and time again. People want to finish their builds. This comes to several extents of course but it is important that players feel acomplished with their character. One of the main reasons I’ve stopped playing PoE is because there is no sense of acomplishment in that game. I cannot finish a build because the amount of currency required is unattainable by the vast majority of people. This is a mistake that you shouldn’t make here or this game will not grow.

Previously the idea was to have the highest rolled uniques that are build enabling or very powerful for the build that it managed to beat crafted items (this was pretty rare). The majority of items were thus crafted with a soft cap of T20 items and a hard cap of T28 items.

Now that goal has changed massively. You have a soft cap of T20 still, but you now also have T28 items with 4 T7 mods or a T30 item with 3 T7 items, 1 T4 and 1 T5. However this is just for crafting. With the option now of legendary items on the table the true engame gear is full legendary gear with 4 T7 extra mods.

Now, I’m not saying everyone should easily get that. However let’s look at what I consider to be the stages and gear corresponding to said stages of the game.

Early endgame should be the point where players have their build defining uniques and everything else is crafted T20s. That is to say, anywhere in the first 2 monoliths, the gearing for early end game must be complete in this form. This is the bare minimum level of archievement a player should expect. It is not a 100% finished build, but it is finished enough to be considered a completed build and whatever comes after that is the improvements to the build.

Mid endgame is where players will have T22 to T26 items as well as some legendary which will probably not have 4 extra stats, it’s probably going to be 1 or 2 extra stats. Players should be reaching this point somewhere during monolith push with extra corruption. It should be noted that most players should be able to archieve this level of acomplishment within the space of 1 month of playing and when i say 1 month I mean by average player standards.

Late endgame is when players are already in full legendary gear, all of which has 2 to 3 extra stats at least. By this point players are pushing deep levels of corruption. Probably the average player will either already have quit or moved to a different build to try other things too. At end game the whole point is crafting T28 items, finding high rolled with 4 forging potential uniques and then craft the really good legendary items. This is something that won’t easily happen but it will be expexted that the good players will easily have at least T22 or higher items to stick in the unique and make it legendary.

So what is the problem with the current crafting for all stages of end game? Simple. It is RNG. Changing one form of RNG for another that is just as bad but doesn’t gives as much false hopes is still not really addressing the problem. To this end changes need to be introduced and I have 2 sugestions but I’d like to say something first. Stacking RNG on top of RNG is not a good solution. Finding a good piece is RNG, then you have RNG to craft and then let’s count more RNG to find a high rolled, hiogh crafting potentital legendary. It’s just RNG on top of RNG and it’s unnecessary. It makes the game inaccessible for the majority of the playerbase.

So option number 1 and this is by far the better one. Make crafting 100% deterministic. Remove the idea of forging potential entirely except for uniques. This means that as long as you have the shards, it is guaranteed to get T20 items which is perfectly fine. T20 is and should be just the begining of the journey, that’s where the soft cap is. To make a comparison with an RPG like D&D, getting a stat to 20 (which is the soft cap) is just begining of the journey, that should be done by level 4. You still have plenty of RNG to find the exalted items with the right stats and the right uniques with the forging potential and high rolls as well. This is not a small amount as average players will still never be able to get a fully complete build with the sheer needed amount of time put to get the drops. It also will not ruin any market implementation as the value will be in shards as well as those really good RNG drops.

The option number 2 is not as good but would at least aleviate the current problem by quite a bit. Instead of crafting potential being a random roll, instead it becomes a number of craftings you can make. So an item with crafting potential of 10 can be augmented up to 10 times. This makes crafting at least fair in it’s deterministic sense but still puts more RNG on top of RNG which is not a good thing.

I understand you want to make rare items feel good and exiting but let me be perfectly honest. If making it exciting comes at the exchange of players feeling like they can’t progress or their progress is too slow, you will just bleed players and players will prefer to play PoE or Diablo rather than playing LE as they are better extablished games with much more content. Instead it’s better if you try to appeal by doing what others aren’t but have been asked for years.

Last I want to address what hasn’t been (or rather won’t be) addressed this updated and that is minions, especially the necromancer side of things.

Last update we got an update that was meant (at least from your words) to make them better.

The things that were asked for is a way for minions not to die because constant resummon is a problem (most people who want to play a minion build play it for the low maintenance and if you have to constantly resummon you essencially remove the reason to play a minion build). A way for minions not to depend on dread shade. More damage for minions because they were the top contender to not stop being able to progress as minions die too easily and stop doing suficient damage.

What did you do?

Minions were nerfed in their damage potential.

Minion are just as easy to kill as before.

Dread shade was nerfed with the false pretense of making it able to be permanent (false because you know all too well that everyone uses the poison dot option) which just made it a direct nerf.

No alternatives to dread shade were given, it is still mandatory in every build no matter what and it keep killing minions.

Abomination is still terrible even with the permanent abillity compared to other minion options thus making it still not a viable option.

Shades are nerfed to hell and back, to the point that if before they were ok with a specific shade build or non specific but usuable as extra DPS wonce you had summoned enough. Now they are just unusable with their terribly low damage and low numbers.

In sum, not only you did not deliver on any of your promisses, you made the minion playstyle even worse. Now I can’t speak for other players, but speaking for myself, I don’t have the best reaction speeds which means any build where I don’t have a very stronf defensive layer to protect me means I die very easily to a quick burst of damage in a map. That is why I play minion builds and totem builds (in game like PoE) so I don’t have to tank everything with my face. Considering minions are not good and totems aren’t even viable. What choices do I have to play?

Sufice to say I will not be playing in the new update. It’s a shame but there is nothing for me here. The spire changes are good, but that alone is not enough for me to play. I cannot even get a build early end game completion because you refuse to do the right thing and keep following the same recipe for disaster that every other ARPG used and has been universally rebuked by the majority of the ARPG community (it is only supported by the minority which are the good players because it creates an even bigger disparity between them and everyone else). You also provide no other way to play other than a highly reactive and high key press usage which again limits your playerbase and even other ARPGs have recognised is not a good thing. It definitely is not for me so you know. I guess I’ll hear from you more for the next update. Hopefully it will actually bring something good to the table. Something that changes the major 2 factors that are keeping me from playing the game. The abillity to get endgame gear at a reasonable pace and having a low managment build (because that’s the only kind of build I can handle competently).

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Your pacing and scale of items as a whole, and crafting specifically, is way off.

First, crafting during the campaign is not only useful, but necessary in most cases. New characters need to shore up resistances with crafting. Resistance shards are abundant.

Second, a fully T20 geared character is late endgame. The game is not balanced for people to be running around with T28 gear. T28 gear is near impossible to get anyway. You probably have a better chance of winning the powerball drawing.

Third, the extreme top end of gear is meant to be aspirational. Something to feel lucky and excited about getting. It isn’t needed to do any content. Players always need something to strive for or there is no point in playing the game. If you had a character that got 100% perfect gear, what would you do then?

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Where did you get that ‘full legendary in each slot’ notion?? Legendaries are not for every build not bis in each slot and they lack many valuable stats. Only Legendaries with 4 LP is bis but good luck to get at least ONE with good affixes for your build :smiley:

Don’t you exaggerate? My VK is lvl97 and has only one item with t5+t5+t4+t4. All other items are t15-17 at best and I did all empowered monoliths with ease. How on earth not being able to wear t20+ in each slot makes the game inaccessible? I can’t get it.

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I disagree. I never crafted before endgame and while at times I’ve felt like progression was slogging down, if I didn’t do it then I’d just have no shards to then craft gear once I hit endgame and then I can’t even play at that point anymore. You definitely need something to help the early game.

T20 is not late endgame. It is meant to carry you up to low corruption levels and then you are meant to be looking for better gear to take you further.

Extreme top end gear is meant to be aspirational… maybe. For the average player sure. For a good player, it will happen every single time without exception. PoE is a perfect example of people running in mirror tier gear by week 2.

For me as a player, I know I’d still never get to perfect gear but I also know that as it stands I will never get even close to having an early endgame finished build because the game stacks RNG on top of RNG and that is one of the main reasons people quit PoE.

It is a bad example cos PoE got real money trading you know?

But what is ‘acomplished character’ for you? t20 in every slot? I don’t know anyone who legit could do that.

The moment you add all 4 stats from one piece of gear to a unique, then that unique is already by all accounts better than what you had since it has some other extra stats of it’s own in addition to the 4 you can craft. There is literally no downside. You just pick whatever unique is BiS in addition to the 4 things you will port over from the exotic.

Innaccessible in terms of being able to complete builds. Human beings crave being rewarded for their efforths and if they feel like they aren’t being rewarded, they tend to stop doing whatever they are doing and instead go do something else that fulfils that need. Yes, psychology is important, believe it not. People need to be able to complete their builds or they will not be happy with the game and quit. This is a fact and has been a fact for a very long time as demonstrated by all other ARPGs.

PoE RMT is not a problem and guess what will happen to LE once you get trading in? That right, it will happen too cause it’s sadly impossible to stop entirely. PoE players get that because they are very good players and often they also have traders that will just give everything to their top players in the guild. You know, those same traders that ruin the game for everyone else by ruining the market. the problem is not the RMT because do you know who uses it? The bad players who will still never get what they want and just waste their money.

An acomplished character in terms of LE for me is bare minimum all t20 or higher and all thebuild defining uniques. That is the bare minimum point for me to say, ok, I’ve finished a build. However there is much more to progress should I want to, even more so now with legendary items to the point that for me, I have what is an unlimited cap cause I’ll never hit it and if at some point I’m tired of grinding out better gear for that character. the build is already finished anyway, I won’t feel bad starting a different character and completing if I like how it plays.

Hey there…

I think you havent read through the finer points of the upcoming patch changes and the details around the crafting & legendaries. You make eloquent points but I think you are making assumptions without all the information.

A lot of what you refer to are concerns that others have raised and most have been answered… For example… your concern about adding a 4 slot exalted to a legendary and getting all 4 stats is going to be very hard… if not impossible to do with the higher level uniques due to them purposely not dropping with high legendary potential… i.e. its virtually guaranteed that an Omni amulet will not drop with 4 legendary potential… a Falcon chest might but thats a very low level unique… Sure even 1 new affix on a top tier Bastion of Honour will make legendaries worth chasing but to do this for every slot… I dont think thats the intended goal and honestly I dont see that anyone except the die hard top 0.5% of players would want to do that.

Your comment about T20 not being late endgame… I have been playing for over 1000h and my best characters have maybe three T20+ items and they handle 300 corruption… The devs have said numerous times that getting something like 2 T7 is very very hard and to be honest I think I only have a handful of t6+t7 items in all my grinding away which unfortunately have mismatched affixes that dont really work for any build… Getting to T28 is effectively and practically impossible.

I think that you are looking at this game from the perspective of other games and not looking at it as a standalone game and how its being shaped… you seem to be wanting to compare it too much to others rather than looking at it fresh and understanding the history of all the changes that the developers have made based on player input…

Hang in there… dont give up on the game yet…

I craft the second my new character loads into the 1st area, movement speed on boots and damage on the weapon. I assumed everyone did that… :slight_smile:

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Yes I just open the crafting window and see which affix shards I have a lot and use them. Of course I don’t use rare shards like +1 to a skill etc. It might be hard for 1st character from a fresh start. But usually attribute and resistances shards drop in abundance. No sense to keep them and not to use.

No it wont happen as far as we know from the Bazaar system. It will be limited.

But I didn’t complete my build by your criteria (t20 in each slot) and I"m happy. You haven’t done that either. And I doubt you 'll be able to do that. So either set a lower threshold for completeness or just play and have fun. Any game should give fun it is not a job where you MUST do somthing or you get fired.

As to legendaries - we don’t yet know how that system feels . Let’s play it a bit then we can make conclusions. It is too early to talk about it.

I have crafted on every single character I’ve leveled, throughout leveling, including my first. Everything you wrote here is total nonsense. There’s really no other way to say it than that. It costs minimal amounts of shards unless, they are not scarce at all, and the benefits you get from regularly upgrading your weapon if nothing else are significant. Your take on this is 100% wrong.

Then you did everything wrong. That’s on you, not the system.

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This game must always be put into perspective with other games, there is absolutely no way of running away from that because at the end of the day people are going to look at the options in the market and chose to play what’s better. Of course, better in this case is up to what each person expects out of the game, but when no one is out there trying to improve and just doing the same mistakes over and over again, then it’s quite hard to compete agaisn’t those who already have a very well polished and established game. The only game so far that did a lot of things better in this area was Chronicron and the only reason it isn’t more successful is because it’s single player only as well as pixel art, otherwise it would be giving a run for it’s money to every other ARPG in the market.

You may talk about what is and isn’t necessary. None of that matters. Players have expectations and it’s not going to work out if those expectations are not fulfilled. Bare minimum T20 in every normal piece is what is expected with a few items above that.

@Gilavar
If you really believe that the bazaar system will be a miracle that sees no RMT then you are only deceing yourself. People will do everything in their power to try and abuse things however they can. I’m not saying it’s good. I’m saying it is 100% going to happen and you can bet on it.

You may be happy, do you think most people will be though? Cause I’m pretty sure that they won’t be just as I am not. It’s also cool say play for fun but guess what, it’s not fun if I feel my progression is being artifically restricted by bad game mechanics.

As for legendaries. I don’t know about you, but within a small margin of error I can pretty much tell where things will end up once the mechanics are explained. I’m not saying I never got things wrong, but I’ll tell you it’s pretty rare.

@BroncoCollider
Then you probably played so much to the point of not crafting for weeks in a row that you reached the point where you have so much in storage that you can take a loss and that won’t matter. However this game will eventually have leagues which means progress resets and then can you really do that? I’m pretty sure you won’t. Mechanics should be in play to account for all of that.

And I don’t craft before endgame because guess what, I rarely have enough that I can aford wasting during the leveling process. I’m not doing it wrong, I just don’t have an alternative.

I can only speak for myself. Do you know about others? Did you take a poll? I guess no. People may want different things from a game. What is true for you is not so for me or anyone else. So you can’t be sure most will feel like you do. Otherwise there will be many similar feedback topics and the devs can change something or revise based on that feedback.

Are you familiar with the concept of the silent majority? It means most people don’t complain, they just give up without ever explaining why they did so.

Even so it’s painfully obvious to see why people quit ARPGs. I know a few people, they all quit ARPGs for the exact same reasons I quit PoE and so on.

Can I talk for everyone? No, you are right about that.

Can I say that if LE does exactly the same as all other ARPGs that their success will be far lower than already existing and well polished ARPGs in the market? I believe it is a fairly well educated guess at worst. Painfully obvious at best. People won’t take the alternative if it’s not an alternative in some way, they’ll just stick with what they know or simply not bother because it’s still not giving them what they want.

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You are generalising here… You have expectations of the game that may or may not ever become reality… Some of these expectations and opinions I dont think are viewed objectively and as I said, with the correct information - potentially making them just factually incorrect… I dont have the same expectations or opinions.

Why? There is no rulebook… I dont view LE or any other game vs other games… I have my favourites chosen based on how I liked the game but I dont directly compare the one against the other… I view each as its own game and how I enjoy(ed) playing it. If a game doesnt do something to the point where I cannot get over my frustration or whatever, then I simply dont play it anymore… I dont dislike it because it doesnt do a particular thing as well as another game… Thats just how I like to view things… I dont pit one game against another like you would racehorses…

Anyway… I am far more relaxed than you obviously are about where the game may or may not go and how the devs try to meet everyones needs (silent or not) or expectations if they deem them important or appropriate…

I have honestly gotten more than my monies worth playing LE so far and would have no hard feelings or regrets if the final game turns out to be not as good as I expect it to be… I think it will be great but thats just me…

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Yes, I am generalsing because at the end of the day I fall into the general opinion and expectations. A game is normally made for the general public, not for niches. There are niche games sure, but those games aren’t out there making good money or intended for a multiplayer platform to stay active for a long time. So of course I generalise. You can disagree with the objectivity of what I said, but it is quite objective regardless of how you feel about it. A simple way to look at it is to look at other games, like it or not, and see what are their failing points and if they are failing points when they are extremely similar, then they will also become a failing point here. The 2 major contenders in ARPGs for players quiting is lack of acomplishment (they can’t finish their builds because the game is designed not to allow it without making the game a job and at the same time be incredibly good and incredibly efficient at it) and the game being designed to be too hard so that only the really good players have a chance to play most of the game.

Of those 2 problems, LE certainly has the first and as for the second it also exists but it’s easily fixable. The problem on the second point is just them finding a way to tune out burst damage from being hit by multiple enemies at the same time. This is very easy to solve though.

As for how you view or not LE or other games for that matter, it is unimportant. What is important is that the majority of people will do comparisons. Why? Because most people are not going to play every single ARPG or every single shooter out in the market. They will pick the best and stick with it. They will change if something better comes out and that’s it, there reasons are varied, from how much time people have to play to how much money they have to spend but the fact of the matter is. People choose before picking and in order to chose they need to compare both games so as to decide what to go with.

You think LE will be great. Right now I think LE has the potential to be the best ARPG in the market. It has good graphics, decent optimisation at this point, it has a good foundation to work with. But the direction is the same as the others and if it keep going the same direction it will actually be worse than the others due to a lack of content by comparision, worse animations and more limited options. Does this means the game will be a failure. No, I don’t consider a game a failure unless it failed to pay for itself. But it will not be a successful game either.

I haven’t found minions that bad, in fact my current build with Abomination is great. He never dies unless I cast Infernal Shade on him and just leave him with nothing to fight for long enough, then he just dies from that. He also kills everything. I don’t even have all my gear good enough to boast about but he still does up to 300K+ on the dummy and destroys nearly everything. He takes out Orobyss very quickly too.

I agree! Update is looking really great! Cant wait to play and try it out

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A lot of wall of text in your posts. My answer is simple because I don´t have time to write novels like you so I disagree with you.

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