I’d be interested to hear how you feel after the first time you actually try to change a few points (genuinely).
To me, it’s like hearing a prisoner say they didn’t like their chains at first, but now they get why they’re here and kinda dig the whole concept of being restrained at all times because this way they can’t go around and do bad things.
Like…???
Yeah I know, the analogy is wonky because a prisoner has been restrained for good reason IRL. Just imagine someone restrained for no reason then.
When they’re having a bad experience for no other reason than that they are looking at it incorrectly, telling them that they’re looking at it incorrectly is not obtuse. Some people came into not-Diablo wanting it to be Diablo, and that’s on them.
Only if you think “quick” should be a synonym for “(nearly) instantaneous” when it’s not, and isn’t going to be. If you have a reasonable definition of “quick”, then it’s always quick. It’s more quick in the endgame, but it’s still quick during the campaign too. I’ve done it hundreds of times. It’s been “quick” every time.
All these complaints that it takes some vague, untenable amount of time are easily disproven. The one and only problem is that some peoples’ perspective and expectations are inappropriate.
Let’s not mince words. We know what their definition is - “Instantaneous, at any time, with no friction at all”. EHG could drop a little dummy you just have to run over to and click a bunch of times to get a level for your skills and that still wouldn’t be “quick” enough.
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You may not accept it, but that’s the only comparison that makes sense. Just because skills have “points” doesn’t mean you automatically have to equate them to passive trees. Corruption in monos also have “points”, should they be the same as PoE’s passive tree?
Skill points work exactly as PoE’s support gems. They improve the damage, they change it in several ways (like Totem gems or Increased Elemental in PoE). And yes, in PoE you can level a skill gem in offhand while not using it. But that requires planning. If we’re talking about experimenting we’re saying that “I don’t like skill X and I want to try skill Y” or “I don’t like support gem X and want to try Y instead”. And in that case, you have to relevel the skill. Or, if you prefer, you can pick the new one and level it in offhand, but that amounts to the same thing in your complaint: you’re wasting time.
The only “advantage” PoE’s system has for this discussion is that you can buy them already leveled and once they’re leveled you can switch builds at will, which, again, is something EHG doesn’t want for LE.
Neither Mathil, Ziz, Nugi, Sefearion, ZiggyD or… well… ANY of the well-versed players in PoE ever do those respective side-quests.
Also respec in PoE is only done for switching from early to end-game building. Those include switching over from a ‘normal’ build to MoM or CI, both of them having inherent requirements to be run properly after all.
The first points spend for a character never change… unless you utterly and massively screw up and want to make a total change of build. Which is solely reserved for end-game as before that you’ll lack the option to do so…
And even if you screw up that badly that you would need to respec the absolute first points it’s not even possible in PoE.
By now I’ve either got to say ‘you’re trolling’ openly even declaring that veterans ever do those quests willingly… or you’re actively insincere to cover up having… well ‘fucked up’ in making your point directly said.
Since at least 2.0 that hasn’t been the case, and I haven’t played active enough to see it before. But since then? No, not done. Bad or no rewards, no seasoned player cares about the campaign and just wants it to be over. Exceptions apply obviously if someone takes a ‘lazy stroll play-through’… but especially PoE provides a mentality of making everything as efficient as possible.
And especially Ziz is a speedrunner, high on competition situations. One must be utterly insane to do ANY side-quest not 100% necessary in PoE since it’ll cause you to fall behind.
Your argument for ‘Most players do them’:
Yes, because most players are so called ‘average joes’, that’s the thing on any game. The first time you play it… maybe even the second and sometimes the third… you’ll do all the content. You want to experience it! But as soon as that part is gone and done why would you care? You know what happens, it doesn’t provide any returns for what you actually wanna do during a time-limited season (And Standard has 10% of the player-base, so it doesn’t fall into your argument anyway) unless you’re playing ridiculous amounts of hours.
But since you’re once again switching your argument then let’s go with it! I’ll humor you there.
So, early- and mid-game you say?
First of all, let’s establish a baseline since you’re shifting that around as you wish, making all arguments you use utterly nonsensical.
Early game in LE is the campaign, same as PoE. In LE this counts until you have all idol slits and all passive points, then mid-game starts.
Mid-game is unempowered monoliths in LE and white-/yellow-maps on PoE
As for levels which end the respective sections:
LE campaign ends on around Level 55.
Poe Campaign ends on level 67.
Mid-game in PoE ends with Level 90.
Mid-game in LE ends at around 75.
Skill baseline since that’s important going forward:
Last Epoch skill adjustement is done solely through the baseline 20 skills you can farm.
PoE skills are done through gems you need to individually have leveled as well as how many links your items have.
Early game comparison for passives:
Last Epoch allows a full respec during the campaign several times over.
Path of Exile allows roughly 1/3th to be respecced… once.
Early game comparison for skills:
Last Epoch allows to switch around, starting at a baseline. Catching up to your former status needs 15-30 minutes.
Path of Exile starts you over at the utter beginning. Switching out gear is still easy and catching up takes around 10-20 minutes.
Mid-game passives:
LE allows you to respec dozens of times.
Poe gives you around 1-2 full respecs in a vastly bigger timeframe needed to reach that point.
Mid-game skills:
LE needs around 10-15 minutes to get back to ‘full’.
PoE becomes iffy now, you can’t as easily change your skills as the sockets often won’t fit with the new setup. Maps is where you switch that tabula out with a *proper’ 6-Link after all. Your skills will be between level 17-19 at that point. Respeccing into new gems takes around 5-10 hours of play-time.
So once more. No… utterly wrong. And your lack of examples is also not helping your case, quite the contrary.
And further on:
If you don’t accept the comparison you personally started then what the actual fuck are you even talking about?
That’s an insane statement which has no substance behind it. You’re shouting out without having any actual leeway behind it, actually the contrary as you’re dismantling your own argumentation. That’s utterly baffling.
Switching out to 21/20 gems in PoE:
Those commonly cost around 2 divine per piece.
Let me ask… how long does an ‘average joe’ need to acquire those? 3 hours or so when taking the whole profit they make into consideration?
That’s a massive cost.
We’re back to ‘time investment’ here.
You sure about that? I’m not conflating the two, but you’re wrong on this, so…
Because they’re both aRPGs & it’s that or comparing LE to D3 which is even moar superer casual.
That & arguing about pointless stuff is fun.
You can use that to argue for any change you want to the point where the game becomes an auto-clicker & looses all point.
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Poe: Buy the gem lv20 you want to switch and few regret orbs, respec - less than 5 minutes
LE: Switch the skill you want to test and level up to 20 - 90 hours later level up to 20
omg how ‘soft’ modern players have become. Next thing they could want will be a big kill-all button. I’m ashamed for you guys. The game is already too easy. Remember d2 where you could respec only 3 times.
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This is disingenuous at best. Sure, in PoE you can buy the gem at level 20… after farming for hours to get the currency you need. If you level the gem from 1 to 20, like everyone does at league start, it will take much longer than in LE.
And in LE, if you switch skills, you relevel a lot faster.
Poe : but lvl 20 gem, then tons of otherf lvl 20 gems that build needs then you need about 100+ regrets. Then new cluster jewels, new gear that is sometimes very hard to buy cos nobody responds especially later into the league… what are you even talking about ?
in LE if you have skills at lvl 20 it is just 2-3 monos to lvl skills from lvl 10 to 20 again. Because experience from monsters is much much higher. If you don’t know what you talk about better keep silent
he is a troll
How’s that working for you in SSF?
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I don’t do these side quests any more for years, but if I want to respec a couple of points, I’ll do the side quests later. As a baseline, my builds were designed without extensive reworks in mind. @Kulze did not recommend skipping the passive point quests.
The rarity of regrets and chaos is approximately the same.
Zizaran made a video 2-3 months ago, where he talks about side quests to skip in PoE. And there he says “The side area here is just when you need respec points and not something you need to mandatorily do.” It’s pretty much what I always heard PoE streamers saying.
I very much disagree with anything you try to say when it comes to a comparison between PoE and LE, as you compare really different points in the game. And you did that, even if you say you didn’t want to. Your perception of PoE is way off from anyone’s experience I’ve ever heard talking about the early to midgame. The system is so punishing and un-forgiving that a new player is better prepared to read a lot before picking up the game or to blindly follow someone else guide. You said as a QA guy you had to be aware of being “nose blind” - that’s exactly what your assessment of PoE is, in my opinion.
I actually have played Affliction until lvl 66, somewhere act 9. I had more regrets than usual - which is only due to the actual league mechanic. And I spent all but 5 of them buying gear. 5l, rise of the phoenix, some unique ring to boost my life reg (I’m bad with names, even item names), etc.
Case to the points:
- LE’s respec system feels fundamentally wrong for you, not for me.
- It’s not objectively off. Your viewpoint is based on subjective feelings that differ from my subjective feelings. As soon as “feel” comes into play, you leave the realm of objectivism and enter the biased state of mind.
- I agree that it would be better to tweak the system in the early game to cater to an audience different from me.
- LE does respect your time. It’s not the death penality of PoE or most other games in the genre that can make run in circles forever, never reaching lvl 100.
One will always make progress while re-levelling them. Maybe a bit slower than usual - but always forward. I respec’ed so often with the 10 characters or so I pushed through the campaign - I never had to repeat a zone to grind back to my current max level because I was stuck.
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Today i respecced 8 times because I wanted to tinker arround with builds. All I learned from it is: I want a respecc all passive points button! ARGH! Lategame respeccs of course. took me an hour to make all eight.
Still early respeccing is trash most likely even more for new players ^1^.
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Yes, this is a good point and one I’d like to see. Or, at the very least, an option to remove the confirmation.
BTW, did you know that you can use the enter key on the confirmation box? It does help speed it up a little.
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Yeah sure still it’s the most player unfriendly slog in LE ^^.
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Or a “right click to remove, left click to add, with one button each to accept or discard all changes”. Same for skill resets.
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We’re talking about at best mid-game here. OP especially and repeatedly screamed about it not being end-game.
You’re comparing end-game state where lvl 20 gems are cheap and easy to acquire (still have a cost attached to them though).
It’s a 100% wrong comparison hence.
Let’s put it into perspective:
Early game you don’t have those options, neither access nor funds to buy regrets or gems in a higher level.
Mid-game you also don’t have the funds for it, you have to pick between progressing your gear further or respec. Lvl 20 gems have a fairly high cost attached, and that goes for a single one. Buying a whole new setup is a massive undertaking mid-game, costing you hours of play-time. We’re not even starting about orb of regrets here… because let me tell you… you’ll have a lot of personal regrets doing it, not solely the orbs in-game.
End-game PoE:
Here it becomes interesting. ‘Just buy new gems and regret orbs’. Sure!
You need 5-10 minutes to get the fitting gear + regrets + the gems if people answer quickly enough. This doesn’t take into comparison the time you need to invest to get the currency needed to even afford that.
End-game LE:
Skills: 5 minutes.
Passives: 5 minutes.
Total: 10 minutes.
Gold cost is negligible, skills don’t cost anything to respec.
If you need 20-90 hours to level a skill up to 20 in end-game then please go and consider taking a doctor’s appointment, you shouldn’t be sitting in front of your screen typing in this forum but rather make sure you’re not dead the next morning. What you describe can be done by a half-blind, one-handed, deaf and ridiculously low reflex and IQ person in at most 45 minutes. And that’s given all those handicaps.
I have already. That’s why I wrote what I did. I started a character, made some decisions, didn’t like them, respec’d and realized what was happening. At first I was WT… then I saw how things changed with the XP for a short while, and the next time I got to put a skill point in I spent some time thinking about what I wanted by looking at the skill tree. This of course may change as I get further in the game, but I like a game that makes me think, not just react.